5.19.2006

Who else wants to die in Iraq?

I was at work yesterday when my mother called to see if everything was fine and if I am going to come back home early or not. While we were chatting, she told me something that made me freeze on the chair I was sitting on.

As she was at the school where she teaches, one of her colleagues was sobbing in the teacher’s room surrounded by other teachers who most of them were crying. “I said to myself, it seems someone has died,” she said within herself. As she peered closely, she discovered that the teacher’s 6 month-old- infant was killed!

Few days ago, a group carrying identifications from the health ministry knocked at the door of the teacher’s daughter’s house. “Do you have children?”, the men asked the daughter. “Yes, one,” she replied. Then the men asked her to bring him to be vaccinated against polio. The infant was “vaccinated” but two hours later, he died.

The victim’s sobbing grandmother narrated how her daughter lost conscious when she discovered that her son was not vaccinated and was poisoned instead. At the same time nearly, two more infants in their early months were also poisoned the same way the first infant was killed with.

The teacher’s daughter was like all Iraqis who trusted the health centers teams who come each season to vaccinate infants against polio. This time, no one expected that the new target is going to be infants.

My mother said she immediately called my sister to warn her. She told her not to open the door for these people even if they were real health teams. My sister was shocked and decided to take her 9-month-old infant to the health center as she did in the previous times.

Things have never calmed down. It is going from worse to worst. A 28-year-old Shiite neighbor of mine was killed as he was driving with two friends in the Sunni majority neighborhood of Adhamiya. As they were driving, a group of armed men stopped their car. After 15 minutes of arguing with the armed men, the three young men gave up convincing them that they live nearby. The armed men decided to search the three men and found their IDs. The two Sunnis were told to leave the area immediately while the third one, a Shiite, was kept a hostage until he was killed. His friends received a call at night telling them he is killed. He left a widow and two infants.

Although I am a Shiite but I live in a neighborhood part of Adhamiyah. I spent all my teenage and college time with my friends there. I have great and nice memories I usually share with my friends in that area. But now, I fear even passing by it. I am a Shiite and my father’s name is a Shiite. If the insurgents discover that, they may kill me like my neighbor. The last times I went their to visit a friend, I did not carry any ID.

The western restive part of Iraq continues to be out of control. 15 Iraqi young athletes were kidnapped while driving to neighboring Jordan, police and Olympic Committee officials said. The 15 taekwondo athletes, hopeful to join the Olympics game one day, were heading to Jordan after a long month of training in Baghdad for a previous championship. Dressed in Training shoes and Tracksuits, the athletes went in two groups joyfully.

The kidnapping of the Korean martial art players took place last Monday on a road between the restless hostile cities of Fallujah and Ramadi, one of the most violent areas of Iraq where insurgents carry out armed operations against Iraqi and US forces. The athletes, in two GMC vehicles, were stopped by a group of armed men who forced the drivers to take the back seat letting them drive to an unknown area.

“They were on vacation,” said Jamal Abdul Karim, the head of the Iraqi Taekwondo Union of. “They weren’t going to Jordan in an official activity or championship. They were going just to have fun altogether,” Abdul Karim said.

The fifteen athletes were all in their twenties. Five of them were members of the Iraqi national team of Taekwondo, including a 27-year-old player who won the Bronze medal in the Asian championship of Taekwondo in Thailand couple of weeks ago.

"We are negotiating with the kidnappers through a mediator. They asked for a $100,000 ransom," said Abdul Karim from behind his desk at the national Olympic committee headquarters in Baghdad. “We haven’t slept since Monday,” he said as he looked deeply moved and about to shed a tear. “They are like our sons.”

Most of athletes were residents of Sadr City, a Shiite slum in eastern Baghdad whose residents are loyal to the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Armed men always cut off the road to Jordan robbing travelers. Abdul Karim said that he and some other athletes were robbed several times as they went to Jordan. “But this time, it was different,” he said.

By the time Abdul Karim was saying that they were contacting the mediator to ensure their release, he received a phone call. After he hanged up, he said, “The ransom was delivered. We are waiting for their release now.” Few hours later, Abdul Karim said that the armed men told them the hostages will be released either today or tomorrow.

Although the players were not on an official mission, Abdul Karim and his colleagues at the Taekwondo union decided to pay the ransom to get their colleagues released. “All the staff and I decided not to get our salaries for one year. Instead, we volunteered it to pay the ransom to free our sons,” he said.

A group of athletes, friends and colleague of the 15 hostages, were gathering outside the Union chief’s office chatting about how they spent their time training and working together. Haider Yousif, the taekwondo national team coach looked sad and moved by the incident. “We feel miserable. We’ve been crying for them for three days,” Yousif said with eyes gazing on the floor.

Yousif who met with the families of the hostages early this morning, said they came pleading to do something. “We told them we will never let them down. We’ll do everything to get them released,” he said. Sorrowful Parents and relatives gathered, some were crying and some were strong enough to control their feelings as they were talking to the officials and colleagues of the hostages. “Their mothers’ pain was far more than anyone else. I could see that in their eyes,” Yousif said. Some of the hostages were from other provinces in Iraq. The family of one player, kept calling from Amara in southern Iraq to see if their son has been released or not. “They will come all the way from Amara to Baghdad,” he added.

Taekwondo players from different provinces joined the sad company of families and colleagues this morning. “They came from Basra, Ramadi, and other provinces and said they would do anything to get their colleagues released,” he said.

Yousif recalled how one of the hostages, Wisam Oraibi, won the Bronze medal in Thailand and how he won a previous Bronze medal in the Taekwondo Championship of the Islamic Nation that was held in Saudi Arabia few months ago.

“Not only us, all Iraqis sympathize with these players,” Yousif said.

The New York Times and the Washington Post published two stories of how daily life looks like in Baghdad. Today’s story of the New York Times was a clear picture of how middle-class and educated people started leaving and thinking seriously to leave the country due to the daily violence.

Now, on the brink of a new, permanent government, Iraqis are expressing the darkest view of their future in three years. "We're like sheep at a slaughter farm," said a businessman, who is arranging a move to Jordan. "We are just waiting for our time."

In a story published in the Washington Post, a resident described how armed men tried to break into a nearby mosque.

"God is great!" cried a man he took to be the imam of one of the mosques of the neighborhood, the urgency and fear in his voice coming loud and clear over the electronic sound system. "God is great!"
The imam's cry was the alarm recognized in all neighborhoods -- Sunni or Shiite -- across Baghdad. The mosque was under attack.

119 Comments:

Fatima said...

To kill innocent babes is the lowest of lows. Thanks for the heads up.

Fatima said...

Also, is there any way of finding out if these horrible deaths were a result of intentional poisoning or of vaccines which have gone bad?

EdoRiver said...

I'm sorry, this comment really belongs in the "Black" comment section but I had to post it here, because it is interesting.

"The BBC's Emilio San Pedro, in Miami, says the issue of the preservation of the English language and American culture is for many at the heart of the immigration debate in the US.

Many Americans are concerned that the influx of immigrants from the Mexican border are altering the very fabric of American life, our correspondent says".

If you want to know how this red-blooded American feels about this issue.

RIGHT ON all you Hispanics! Mexican/Hispanic/Latin American culture CAN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN European culture for the past 50 years!!!!!!!!! I say, LET THE CHANGES BEGIN. AND LET AMERICAN CULTURE BEGIN CHANGING NOW (Well really it has been changing already, but hardly noticed except in West US. ;-)))))))))))))))))))))) Viva La Cinco de Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!! or what ever you like.

EdoRiver said...

An apology,
I sounded like a "know-it-all" regarding Islamic terms, "mullah" and "imam". From Wikipedia I see that imam is not only restricted to "The Imam" meaning the 12 Imam, but it is a general, frequent term used by both Sunni and Shia equally. And mullah seems, from what I could understand, is not a general term but one that is mostly used in Iran, for a (relatively) trained leader of an Islamic community, a Shia term??

I had equated "mullah" with Rabbi, or a Catholic, Shinto priest, or Protestant minister.

Truth About Iraqis said...

BT,

Last week I read that a local football coach in Basra had been killed. I asked Fayrouz to confirm but she couldn't find any information on it.

Did you hear anything bout it?

Anonymous said...

These Islamist butchers are killing anybody they can lay their hands on. The Iraqi people should rise up and declare war on these mongrels and rid themselves of this bloodsoaked scurge!!

texag03 said...

Now they won't even let you enjoy sports? Sounds like these people were more common criminals than Jihadists but still...

Terrorists killing babies?

Some "noble resistance" huh?

These people are subhuman. Like the Nazis before them these people and their ideology need to be wiped off the planet.

I say again: It is amazing what some people can be brainwashed into believing. That someone could think killing babies and murdering people in the streets put them in God's favor...truly mind-boggling.

Like the Holocaust, one day we will look back on History, when these people poisoned the Middle East with this ideology, and wonder how it ever happened. For all our sakes I hope this happens more sooner than later.

Thanks again BT for showing us the true face of evil. God help you and your family as you live through this.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Yes, the so-called Islamic fanatics who have come to Iraq I believe are misinformed, manipulated and perhaps a shade of evil as well.

The kidnappers of the Taekwondo team, I believe, are common highway bandits out for money, nothing more.

Kidnapping, more often than not, is for financial purposes in Iraq. Unemployment, lawlessness, lack of a viable central security force are all partial reasons for the kidnapping in Iraq.

Revenge and political motivations also play a role.

However, I would caution the use of the prename "Islamic". Claiming to be fighting for the cause of Islam when the fight itself is unlawful according to the Quran does not qualify a group to be called Islamic or for Islam to be applied anywhere in that context.

Islam, a noble and righteous faith, has been manipulated by people who seek power, influence, and demagoguery over others. This has been the case in Iran, Saudi Arabia and so on.

Because political persuasions do not convince the masses in the Arab World, such rogue terror groups have turned to Islam.

That is why I have always opposed Hamas, for example, but not the PLO.

The 911 attacks should have been labelled as crimes against humanity and Islam by ALL muslim religious orders, rather than argue whether Muslims carried them out or not.

Christianity was manipulated very much in the same way to launch the Crusades.

I would ask all here to remember the adage "The enemy of a church is from within".

For example, some have taken to calling Osama bin Laden, a pampered failed mercenary soldier who wanted to do nothing but overthrow the Saudis, a Sheikh.

That is erroneous. Bin Laden never went to a religious school such as can be found in Cairo's Al Azhar, Iran's Qum or Iraq's Najaf and Kerbala and so on.

He never studied religion. He simply decided to start making speeches which people have called fatwas.

He is not qualified to preach and in strict Islamic interpretations he is considered an apostate of Islam.

But support for him and his band of murderers did not produce itself in a vacuum. Tensions, tempers, passions and legitimate grievances against US foreign policy were manipulated in such a way that it became difficult for bin Laden and anyone else to justify any killing.

For example, the name Zarqawi is reviled in much of Iraq as it is elsewhere in the Arab and Muslim worlds.

The beheading of Berg and others and the videos posted on the net may have produced one or two new recruits but also alienated millions.

If bin Laden were Shia, his speeches would have been struck down by the Marja'iya. Unfortunately, Sunni Islam does not have such a hierarchial structure.

Perhaps, it needs one.

In that case, some leading Sunni cleric, perhaps from Indonesia or Egypt or Iraq, could issue a Fatwa that while resisting the occupier is an Islamic occupation, killing and maiming of innocents is unlawful in Islam.

They could issue Fatwa saying beheadings and kidnappings and so on are unlawful.

Come to think of it, the Shia Marja'iya should also issue fatwa saying drilling and torture prisoners and executing Sunnis is also wrong.

Everything, even the religious orders in Iraq, have failed the people.

But I think Fatima raises a good point, vaccines gone bad. These should be first off administered at a hospital or clinic, not outside a home. I have heard that Iraq has been flooded with old medicines.

In some cases, when you pass the expiry date these medicines become lethal. Same is true of vaccines.

So, Fatima's question is very valid.

Truth About Iraqis said...

As for who or what the Iraqi resistance is, there is much controversy and misinformation.

First and foremost, those who fight for Saddam fight for Saddam, not Iraq. Saddam is not and never was Iraq.

It is only those who fight for Iraq, those who resist occupation, that can be called a resistance.

Those who target Iraqi civilians are not resistance. Those who target mosques and churches are not resistance.

Those who attack Shia simply because they are Shia, or attack Sunni because they are Sunni are not resistance.

Those who kidnap and behead people are not resistance.

Those who fight for an Islamic Caliphate are not resistance because Iraq has not asked to be that. Is is an imposition.

For example, one resistance fighter tells Asia Times why he fights:

Call them terrorists, call them resistance fighters. By whatever their name, they have their own reasons for fighting the Americans in Iraq. Abu Ayoub, a 35-year-old living in Baghdad, is a member of the Islamic Army. He spoke in the Adhamiya neighborhood about why he joined the fight.

"When the occupation forces entered Baghdad, they killed my brother in front of my eyes. He was wounded and bleeding but the occupation forces didn't allow me to save him. When I tried to save him they began shooting at me, and after a few minutes my brother died. After that I swore to fight them to the death."

"But the Islamic Army would never negotiate with the United States or the Iraqi government, Abu Ayoub said. He believes negotiators with the coalition and Iraqi government include only resistance fighters from the Ba'ath Party. "The Ba'ath resistance fights for Saddam, not for Islam or for Iraq. We are against this. They aren't representative of the Iraqi resistance."

But Ayoub believes it is still not right to attack members of the Iraqi army and police. "First we must liberate Iraq from occupation forces, and then we can judge each one of them who committed crimes."


According to Iraqi journalist Ahmed Ahmed Janabi:

According to eyewitnesses, confrontations with resistance fighters occur because the Iraqi police and National Guard troops, who are supposedly Iraqi patriots, proceed in front of the US troops to form a protective shield and are used in all missions that could involve clashes as well as raids of places sacred not only to Iraqis but to all Muslims, such as mosques.

These troops also routinely conduct joint patrols with US forces and return fire when attacked by resistance fighters. Who then is to blame—the Iraqi resistance for attacking the occupying forces or those who accompany these forces?

The fact that the occupation authority provides training to the Iraqi army and police forces and has complete control over their resources and ideological orientation training makes every individual within these forces viewed as being partisan to the US occupation, and it is difficult to convince resistance fighters that Iraqis who sign up with these forces are merely doing so to provide for their families, especially given the absence of channels for dialogue with the resistance, which is still underground and therefore not in a position to open these channels.


Furthermore, it should be stated here that resistance in Iraq is not a novice idea or phenomenon.

There were resistance movements dating back to the 1920s when nationalistic Shia tribes could no longer tolerate the presence of British troops. And so began an uprising that was quickly spread and supported by their Sunni brethren.

It was in that resistance that Iraqis found commonality - their Arab roots and their connections to the Arab World.

According to Marxist historian Hanna Batatu, the 1920 revolt saw "For the first time in many centuries, Shias joined politically with Sunnis, and townsmen from Baghdad and tribesmen from the Euphrates made common cause.

"Unprecedented joint Shia-Sunni celebrations, ostensibly religious but in reality political, were held in all the Shia and Sunni mosques in turn ... the proceedings culminating in patriotic oratory and poetic thundering against the English.

"Indeed, it would not be going too far to say that with the events of 1919-20, and more particularly with the bond, however tender, that was created between Sunnis and Shias, a new process set in: the painful, now gradual, now spasmodic growth of an Iraqi national community." ("The Old Social Classes and Revolu tionary Movements of Iraq," Princeton University Press, 1978)


The death toll at the time was catastrophic for Iraqis as the population of the country was barely 3 million people.

More than 13,000 Iraqis - many of them civilians - were killed, including by aerial gas bombing on many Shia villages in the south of Iraq and elsewhere.

Some 2000 British (Mostly Indian and Nepalese) troops, including the British commander at the time, were killed.

I could also go into the anti-occupation, anti-foreigner coups against General Bakr Sidqi in 1937 and King Ghazi.

I could also talk about the British-led ouster of Rashid Aali Al Geilani, the mounting of Nouri Said as British proxy ruler of Iraq and his eventual destruction in 1958, but I won't for the sake of time and space.

Foreign occupation in Iraq has always been rejected. Always.

And always will be. It is wise to heed the histories of the past in Iraq and understand that resistance against the occupier is valid.

As was in North America, as was in Mexico against the French, as was in France against the Nazis, as was in Vietnam against the French, as was in Russia against the Nazis, as was in Yugoslavia and Greece against the Nazis, as was in China against the Japanese and so on ...

عطاء said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
hnk said...

THAT'S AWFUL
I just want to know, how could the human being kille a babies.
there's nothing about Shia and Suna, but it's about killing the people with no reasones.
I just want to know, did you know that you are Sheai before the war? I swear that I didn't know what is Shia and what is Sunna mean. And I didn't hear the people talking about that. And After the war, I asked my mother: to which part we belong?
well, I don't think that that was a good question. Because we are all belonge to one part. We are all Muslim and we are all iraqi and that is the important thing.

CMAR II said...

Truth About Iraqis said:

However, I would caution the use of the prename "Islamic". Claiming to be fighting for the cause of Islam when the fight itself is unlawful according to the Quran does not qualify a group to be called Islamic or for Islam to be applied anywhere in that context.
[...]
Because political persuasions do not convince the masses in the Arab World, such rogue terror groups have turned to Islam.


Fine, that's true as far as it goes, but a surveys in M.E. countries continuously show that Muslims there approve suicide bombers in Israel and Iraq. So, presumably, most Muslims in the M.E. do not think that people how commit suicide to murder random innocents for totally earthly ends will not go Hell.

No doubt your Islamic beliefs are more godly, but there is a version of Islamic extremely popular in the M.E. (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Anbar province, Jordan, Syria, Egypt) that believes "Islam" means something totally different from what you assert.

I'm sure you are right that their understanding of Islam is off-base, but we have to deal with Islam as it is CURRENTLY understood in the M.E., particularly in Iraq.

CMAR II said...

Truth About Iraqis says:

It is only those who fight for Iraq, those who resist occupation, that can be called a resistance.

(Sigh)
Once again, there are plenty of people planting car bombs on streets and at mosques, who assassinate people working in the Water department, etc who believe they are "resisting the occuapation".

I have my doubts you could tell the difference between your "true" resistance and the one occuring daily in Iraq. I have my doubts any such difference exists.

Anyway, there is no occupation anymore. The current government of Iraq has been elected through a series of internationally monitored elections that determined the rules of the election as well as the participants. Any troops providing aid to that duly elected government are there at the government's behest.

Unless you consider Bosnia, Liberia, Germany, and Australia to be occupied territory.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Iraqi resistance groups have come out time and again to condemn attacks against civilians.

Let us not forget there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of small death squads operating for God knows who.

Nevertheless, it remains most Iraqis consider it an occupation.

And most Iraqis consider the current government as impotent or having actively pursued a death squad policy.

Does it matter what Iraqis think then? Or not.

After all, this is their country, is it not?

Lists were voted on in the elections you boast so highly of, and most Iraqis voted because they believe they would usher in a stable government which put an end to the occupation and violence.

Iraq is not a sovereign state no matter how many elections you hold.

I referred to 1920 because in 1921 the British held a plebiscite on King Faisal. They passed that off as an election as well.

misneach said...

It's painful to read about things like this. Infant children? What kind of monster could ever... I don't even know what to say. This goes beyond the argument of freedom fighter/terrorist or about fostering differences so as to divide the population and make them easier to control. This... This is just madness. It pains my heart to hear how people can hold human life to be of such little value.
If Iraq is, as the white house says, a testing ground for the "forward strategy of freedom" that is to be all of our future, then may God help us all.

CMAR II said...

Truth About Iraqis said:

Does it matter what Iraqis think then? Or not. After all, this is their country, is it not?

I know this is difficult for you to grasp, but in a representative democracy, it matters how they vote, not how they think. Or, more accurately, what you BELIEVE they thought or think.

If they don't like the policies fo the parties they voted for this time, they can vote for a different list next time. That's the way democratic government generally operates.

The point is that the current government WAS elected, the election was internationally monitored and endorsed, and that elected government wants the foreign pro-Iraqi forces to stay.

In fact, SCIRI was earlier talking about sending all foreign troops away and the Sunni Arab dominated parties balked. They don't want the foreign troops to leave until the militias are disbanded (which probably won't happen until the insurgency is crushed).

Welcome to the real world, TAI. Enjoy yourself as you vacation here.

anton said...

I saw recently a video showing the so-called "Baghdad Sniper" in action. I made some research about the video, but the informations are vague. Some say he is one person and a hero among iraqis, others say that in reality there is several snipers and the "Baghdad Sniper" is just an urban legend, a mith. Could anyone provide us more informations on this?

Truth About Iraqis said...

You said representative democracy.

Excuse me, but this is not what we have in Iraq.

What has happened in Iraq is not democracy.

Exiles, some of them who had been out of Iraq for anywhere between 20 to 40 years were brought in on US tanks and imposed on the Iraqi people.

They were "selected" for the IGC by Bremer and his Chalabi and Allawi alies.

These then cemented their influence and power in Iraq. They were then formed into lists which the electorate chose.

These lists then chose who should and should not lead the country, what ministries and so on.

As for the electorate, when they voted on the referendum, for example, many had not even seen the draft constitution. The entire process was rushed.

According to rules set up by the interim parliament last year, if the legislators missed their deadline for drafting the constitution, new elections were to be held.

They missed this deadline, but this rule was overlooked, because after all, governance in Iraq right now is not about rules, is it?

Furthermore, there were several versions of the draft that managed to be distributed leaving the entire process in disrepair.

Which one of you sanctions voting on an incomplete document, or a document that is in several versions?

Why would you abhor such things but for Iraq its permissible?

Saying it takes time to build a democracy is nonsense. Its not about time but about the basis of the foundations you lay down for future generations.

In Iraq, the foundations themselves are corrupted.

Furthermore, most Iraqis voted the way Sistani, or other clerics told them to vote. This is exactly what has happened in Iran. Many outside Tehran voted the way the hardline clerics told them to vote.

Sistani has such sway in Iraq that if people did not vote his way they feared going to hell.

This is not democracy. When you vote in a representative, pluralistic democracy your vote is not meant to appease your cleric or spiritual leader.

It is meant to meet with your requirements for what a party or leader should espouse for the country.

(Furthermore, in Iran all candidates have to be approved - selected - by the Guardian Council.)

In Iraq, many groups believe they are owed leadership of the country and its ministries because they suffered under Saddam.

We all suffered under Saddam. All Iraqis did. Can one suffering be compared to another?

That is prejudicial. It says one should be entitled a position based on what happened to them not on their qualifications for the job.

Why are there televised debates in the US, Canada, Australia, UK, Germany, and elsewhere.

Why can't we have had that?

Why is it in Iraq none of the lists and their various allegiances provided the people with platforms. Socio-political and economic platforms.

All we had were mugshots of Allawi promising to crush violence. We had subtle threats that people should vote one way or another.

But never any real debate. Never any discussion, never any exposition of the core issues.

What entitles Hakim to be in the government? Did the Iraqi people put him there? No, Bremer did and then said vote on him.

It doesn't work that way. Does Congress huddle behind closed doors and decide who should be the President?

Did Iraqis know Maliki would be the Prime Minister when they went to the polls? How many of them even knew he was next in line or could likely be a Prime Minister.

When you shoot in the dark, you are likely to hurt someone including yourself. This is Iraq.

People who come here like to call me and others names.

The fact remains I want a durable pluralistic democracy in Iraq where every man and woman is equal.

Why did everything need to be rushed? This will forever destroy Iraq, this botched up mockery of democracy.

There is no next time. There should have been a next time when the constitution missed its deadline.

This is supposedly the government we all have to contend with for four years. It is not representative an it does not serve Iraqi interests.

What kind of government takes six months to form? It is because they all want to stuff their throats with a piece of the pie. Who wields influence, power and money.

The smallest of elections in a small town in midwestern US is far, far more advanced than the farce in Iraq.

Why should that be enough for us?

We did not survive years of war, sanctions, Saddam, US bombings and near civil war to build a corrupted system.

If this is the foundation, Iraq is ruined.

CMAR II said...

TAI,

Rushed????

That is funny. For about a year and a half I've been trying to convince your comrade Nadia that Bremer wasn't dragging his feet in beginning the electoral process. She's convinced that the US would NEVER have done it if the Great democrat Sistani had not insisted.

I just can't keep up with you Rejectionists. You are on too many sides at once and then you are on all the opposite sides the next minute.

The process wasn't rushed and it certainly wasn't slowed down. If you would have wanted a more deliberated process, however, you have no one to blame but the blessed Iraq Resistance whose constant attacks on Iraqi infrustructure and law-and-order required a constant impetus toward Iraqi independent governance.

I don't in what psychedelic world Chalabi and Allawi are running the Iraqi government, but it isn't the one I in which I live nor Iraq either.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Beginning the democratic process is one thing. Holding elections because Sistani wanted to is another.

The US was afraid of Sistani turning over his Persian rug and calling for all out war against US forces. Yes, in appeasing him everything else got botched up.

Developing and working for democracy at a grassroots level takes time.

It cannot be done overnight. But in the writing of the constitution the US government forced people to wrap it up so it would look good in the WaPo or NYT.

Please. Rejectionists? Don't you read what we write? We want a sovereign and free Iraq which has enshrined in its foundations the rights of all Iraqis.

What we have now is a farce, albeit a bloody one.

And most of the violence is perpetrated by the so-called leaders who have their marching orders from elsewhere.

But that was the plan all along wasn't it, bring to power those who would sow more chaos to validate the building of vast bases to supply a continued military presence in the country.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Further to my point about being rushed, why is Maliki announcing a cabinet minus the Defence and Interior Ministry?

What is the rush? Talabani told him to announce a whole or not at all. Maliki says he is doing it to stabilize the country.

But are the Army and the Police not supposed to be the pivotal forces to stabilize the country?

How then can his announcement stablize the country?

Hmmm ...

Furthermore, why is there a rotation of posts for the politicians.

For example, under Bayan Solagh Jabr, the Interior Ministry committed horrific crimes and did nothing to lessen the violence. In fact, it helped increase it.

So, is Jabr being investigated? No.

Is he being reprimanded? No.

Has he apologized to the Iraqi people? No.

Has he quit? No.

So, what happened to him.

He god rewarded with the cash cow called the Finance Ministry, according to the BBC.

What?

This is democracy? Where ministers are rotated? Why? Is there a lack of capable Iraqis?

Didn't Saddam also move people around? I remember Tariq Aziz having three different posts since the late 1980s.

Oh, keep it in the family right, that's how a democracy works, of course, we have the best example, Bush family.

Also, why is Hoshiar Zebari foreign minister for the third time.

He had that post under the IGC, a temporary post. Then with the interim government, emphasis on interim. And now he gets it again?

Maybe he is the only Iraqi who speaks a foreign language?

Not good, people. Not good.

CMAR II said...

Please. Rejectionists? Don't you read what we write? We want a sovereign and free Iraq which has enshrined in its foundations the rights of all Iraqis.
[...]
But that was the plan all along wasn't it, bring to power those who would sow more chaos to validate the building of vast bases to supply a continued military presence in the country.


Yes. Rejectionists is the word. You and your ilk have been against every step toward a liberated Iraq since before Saddam's removal:

Remove the Ba'athist Terror State?
"Who are you to tell the Iraqis they can't live in constant fear and misery in a terror state?"

Repair the Iraqi infrastructure and stablize the country in anticipation of a modern democracy?
"They only want to steal the oil! Destroy the infrastruction and launch havoc to keep the occupiers from getting a foothold!!"

Iraqi January elections 21 months after the fall of Saddam?
"There's too much disorder (that our heroes are causing). Elections will only cause an immediate civil war! Sunni Arabs should not participate in this farce!"

January elections were a success?
"Well, Bush would never have done it if Sistani hadn't forced him! And the Sunni Arabs aren't involved in the government because they didn't participate in the elections!"

One more year and two elections later?
"The elections were too soon! Iraqis weren't ready to select their own leaders! That means that the leaders they DID elect are illegitimate. They'll all have to be overthrown so we can start again from the ashes! Who cares that it would cause genoicide, forced relocation, and the break-up of the country! This is justice we're talking about!"

I can't decide if you Rejectionists only want Iraq to fail out of nihilistic hate for Bush, to bring back Saddam, or because you live is a dreamworld where you think you can just say you want something to occur it in some barely conceived manner and will without any subsequent devastation.

CMAR II said...

What is the rush? Talabani told him to announce a whole or not at all. Maliki says he is doing it to stabilize the country.

Umm...because Iraqis elected their leaders 5 months ago? Theses seems like a rush to you? Most *reasonable* Iraqis recognize that the lack of a real executive government has permitted the country to drift and help the insurgency and the militias grab power.

I realized that you see Reason as a debility and have not so encumbered yourself. But that is why Maliki is in a hurry. Maybe if it weren't for the glorious Iraqi Resistance he could take more time.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Tsk, tsk CMAR getting desperate.

Calling Iraqis who want to see a sovereign Iraq rid of US occupation and exercising the rule of law that every Iraqi is equal and free is Rejectionism for you.

I suppose you could say I reject US occupation.

I reject the wholesale slaughter of my people.

Do me a favor, stand up and condemn the killings in Haditha. Can you?

Show spine, show you care for the Iraqi people like we do.

Condemn Abu Ghraib as quickly as you condemn attacks on civilians.

Are they not equally insufferable?

I want to see you condemn the Ameriya Shelter bombing as vehemently as you condemn the attacks on 911.

I do, but that is because I respect the sanctity of human life, wherever it may be.

Yes, I reject your murderous cult because it is a savage, inhumane breed that seeks to prove that the invasion of Iraq was righteous at all costs.

Nothing deters you from that.

Yes, I reject Abu Ghraib, the persons behind it, the persons who support it and the persons who continue to turn a blind eye to it.

I do not reject democracy, I reject how it has been maligned in Iraq and manipulated to feed the ignorant pinings of a domestic audience.

I reject how ministries are passed around freely while Iraqis wither away and millions have fled.

I reject the environment which has made beggars of the Iraqi people.

I reject your use of the word "elect" because that is not what Iraqis did five months ago. They were shown a line-up and forced to choose.

A line-up which was established by the US occupation for the US occupation.

Maliki is in a hurry yes but not because of the violence in Iraq which he and his fellows are shielded from but because the new Iraqi law based on the interim parliament says new elections must be held if a government is not created within six months of the election results.

And if new elections were held now as enshrined by the law, what would happen? Would Maliki be in power? Would Jabr or Rubaie?

I am calling for power to be given back to the people. If we were muzzled before, surely all the sacrifices in recent years means we have earned the right to determine our future.

The right to choose leaders not backed by heavily armed militia backed by heavily armed fanatic nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Surely, as an American you can appreciate right, not might.

By the way, those quotations you have, I never said and I don't recall anyone else saying them.

But that is the tactic of the manic pro-war supporter. Lie, ignore the truth, avoid the details, switch and bait and then lie again.

You keep raising Saddam's name because that is the ONLY game you know how to play.

We all realize Saddam is the past. We are looking to the future, to build a world free of Saddams.

Unfortunately, mini-Saddams have been imposed on us. But that's okay because if the US imposed them, then it must be okay.

Why is it you did not answer a single of my questions about Jabr or Hoshiar imf3afit?

Reconstruction in Iraq? How many billions have the thieves you openly support stolen from Iraq?

How many internal investigations is it going to take to prove how much of Iraq's wealth was stolen?

Report after humiliating report has exposed the reality of the US "aid" to Iraq.

Half-built hospitals, a road here and there. Yes, reconstruction is good alright.

And yes, let us blame it on the resistance. But wait, didn't Rumsfeld say they were dead-enders, desperate, at the end of their throes?

SO how could they have possibly thrown ajar the US's great plan for reconstruction in Iraq?

Or are we to believe that a few thousand Iraqis armed with RPGs and rifles can bring to a hald the plans of Halliburton, KPMG and the great drive to resuscitate Iraq.?

Do you really think Iraqis are folled by this?

Run in circles, delude yourself, then run some more.

You just like to use labels, unfortunately, labels which do not apply.

Why don't you ask the Iraqi here - BT - if he considers me a rejectionist.

Ask Fayrouz. Ask Zeyad. Ask Riverbend. Ask Najma. Ask Asterism.

You call me a Rejectionist, they call me friend and brother.

Yes, we ALL reject you and your kind, make no mistake of it.

And history rejects you too ...

Truth About Iraqis said...

Typos: Hald=Halt
Folled=fooled.

CMAR II said...

Why don't you ask the Iraqi here - BT - if he considers me a rejectionist. Ask Fayrouz. Ask Zeyad. Ask Riverbend. Ask Najma. Ask Asterism. You call me a Rejectionist, they call me friend and brother.

Why do I need to seek authorization from others for what you make crystal clear in every word you write? (Ask Riverbend if you're a Rejectionist? That was funny)

But you have convinced me that exiles like yourself (I mean particularly like yourself) have no business opining on the future of Iraq. You didn't have that right when Saddam was in power, and I don't intend to sanction you taking that right by force of American tanks. So butt out.

Naturally, I will condemn the killings in Haditha should they turn out be homicides (I don't intend to take that jackass Murtha's word that they are), and expected to see the perpetrators punished. Just as I did for the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib (which the US military uncovered, investigated, and prosecuted for 3 months prior to anyone else getting wind of it).

Now, I expect you to denounce all Iraqis -- ALL -- who have wasted valuable Iraqi resources fighting those who overthrew Saddam, rather than helping them do their jobs so they could get out of Iraq and liberate Syria and Iran. If you don't, of course, it will obviously mean that you are for chaos in Iraq and fascist tyranny for Arabs, Persians, and Kurds.

Truth About Iraqis said...

I fully support every Iraqi who loves their country and fights to rid it of terrorism, fanaticism and foreign occupation.

You mentioned Saddam again. We Iraqis no longer mention him, so why do you?

We dont even pay attention to the trial, so why do you?

And as for me not having a right to talk about my country, that's really a new low for you.

"Butt out"? Coming from a slave of the pro-war, pro-destruction of Iraq cult, I am honored.

Sorry, no can do. This is my country not yours. My grandparents and aunts and uncles lie in its earth. Not yours. And the filth of the American invader will not desecrate it. No matter how much you pray it does.

I am amused at how you have run out of things to say.

You don't want to talk to the other Iraqis because some of them have emailed you telling you to shut up. And you know what their answers would be had you tried to ask them their opinions.

Do you think we do not discuss you and the others?

We do it all the time. And most of the time we get a good laugh out if it at your expense.

I delight when us Iraqi bloggers rally around each other. It is a testament to the unity we know we can achieve in our country, Inshallah.

The unity which scares you.

It is these people that matter to me.

So, to quote my sister Fayrouz:

I'm more interested in reading the opinions of Iraqi bloggers than reading the American bloggers analysis of the siuation. Yes, you can add me to the list of your enemies of all I'm concerned.

Man, she is one gutsy, classy lady.

EdoRiver said...

Sorry, I couldn't read all those replies and counter replies. TAI, and CMAR seem to be on different planets. TAI writes like he lives in Iraq. CMAR writes like he lives in middle class America and watches the Fox Network news. Sorry, CMAR, you may tell me you are in Baghdad right now, or you are in the Green Zone or the White House--heh, heh, all of those places have their illusions.

One point I always try to remind myself of, is I am in Saitama Japan. I am not married to an Iraqi (though my first real love was for a Iranian pharmacy major who was in the US studying) and living in Iraq. I have a strong feeling for both Iran and Iraq. But I can't sit in some arm chair and claim to tell Iraqi people how to run their lives. I defer to TAI and Baghdad Treasure, and the incredible number of Iraqi blogs that Najima has surveyed. Any tie vote goes to them.

"As much as Americans are used to telling other people how they should run their lives", this is what my wife constantly tells me, "I am trying to be a little more courteous and humble....well, I am trying ;-)

CMAR II said...

And as for me not having a right to talk about my country, that's really a new low for you.

You are no less an exile than Chalabi and Allawi (no, you are less than they are, since they grew up in Iraq and are there now). I wouldn't want to see you (YOU particularly) benefit from the lost lives of American soldiers, Iraqi soldiers, and Iraqi police. It is an especial low of yours to expect to after all you've said about Chalabi and Allawi.

You mentioned Saddam again. We Iraqis no longer mention him, so why do you? We dont even pay attention to the trial, so why do you?

You know nothing about Iraq if you don't know that Saddam's birthday is still honored in Tikrit, Fallujah, and other places in Anbar. I'm sure you don't pay attention to the trial.

I fully support every Iraqi who loves their country and fights to rid it of terrorism, fanaticism and foreign occupation.

There is no occupation. None. You are deluded. The duly elected government chooses to have military help in crushing the hostile anti-Iraqi "resistance" (the enemy of the country's elected representatives and a peaceful prosperous Iraq. As their supporters you are thier enemy.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Hey Edo, I am not in Iraq at the moment. Just want to be clear about that.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Chalabi and Allawi have political affiliations with the FBI, CIA, AIPAC, the PENTAGON, MI-5, the MOSSAD, take your pick.

My affiliations are with the Iraqi people. Huge diff, no?

I don't seek power in Iraq. They do and at any cost and at the expense of people they were raised with. Shame.

Yes, no occupation, there, there, don't pout.

AS for enemy, I think Fayrouz kinda slapped a big one there didn't she? Or it may have been one of the other pro-warmongering horde.

I can no longer tell you apart.

I just love Iraqi women, I swear.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Whoopsie, just so I don't leave any misconceptions behind.

I mean to say.

AS for enemy, I think Fayrouz kinda slapped YOU a big one there didn't she? Or it may have been TO one of the other pro-warmongering horde.

Artu said...

Truth about Iraqis,

You are fundamentally right in your analysis of what a real democracy is and what its prerequisites are. Elections by themselves are NEVER equated with democracy (all respected authors from Robert Dahl to Fareed Zakaria stress that).

I am not an Iraqi and not an American, and looking from outside I can say that there is no point arguing with likes of cmar ii. Really. These guys don't care about the future of Iraq. They just care about domestic American politics in the most unidimensional manner - uncritically supporting the present administration. Hence, they will choose to see (and/or consciously manipulate) only those facts in Iraq that justify the current foreign policy of the US. Again, I truly believe you are wasting your time and energy debating with them the fate of your beloved country...

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Fatima,
I think “lowest” is so little to describe these people with. Like you, I thought of another word to describe them with but in vain. What they did was far worse than anything else.

“Also, is there any way of finding out if these horrible deaths were a result of intentional poisoning or of vaccines which have gone bad?”
As far as I heard, it was only these three houses the “team” visited. Other families who have infants said they were not visited by any health team.

TAI,
First, thanks for the well-informative details. Secondly, I haven’t heard the news about the coach in Basra but I think it might have happened. Situation in Basra is going to explode in any moment. I will check on that later…

Texag03,
Thanks for your wishes. Sports is one of the things which people strongly enjoyed before the war. Now, it is extremely dangerous to practice sports. I remember few years ago that many young men were used to jogging, others riding their bikes. At the meantime, it is extremely dangerous to attend a football match!!

“Now they won't even let you enjoy sports? Sounds like these people were more common criminals than Jihadists but still...”
Well, of course! If these people follow religious men saying that soccer, for instance, is “blasphemous”!!

I just want to make it clear for those who believe that this was a Muslim act. You may say that all Muslims believe in that! They are not. Even prophet Mohammed once said, “Teach your children sports like swimming and riding horses…”

So as u said Texag03, these were CRIMINALS.

“Some "noble resistance" huh?”
Nah! You should know the difference. There is a difference between resistance and terrorism. Killing innocents is a criminal act that is caused by terrorists, not resistance.

Resistance includes people defending their occupied country by fighting the occupier, not the civilians. There are different armed groups in Iraq. One of them is the resistance which the Iraqi president and the US ambassador are trying to make them join the political process and lay down weapons. If so, they would be a stab to the terrorists like Zarqawi whom he and his men kill innocents along with occupiers.

CMARII,
“No doubt your Islamic beliefs are more godly, but there is a version of Islamic extremely popular in the M.E. (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Anbar province, Jordan, Syria, Egypt) that believes "Islam" means something totally different from what you assert.”

Well c’mon! You don’t live in the ME or Iraq to say that. You don’t believe in this religion to say something you don’t know about. TAI’s words were so accurate and to the point. As a Muslim Iraqi, I believe that he was so sincere and fair in giving all these details. Habibi, you live in a country which has no access to news and reports except through the local cable channels!

“Once again, there are plenty of people planting car bombs on streets and at mosques, who assassinate people working in the Water department, etc who believe they are "resisting the occuapation".”
Well, you said it, “THEY BELIEVE”, not WE! Let them call themselves whatever they like. Such people whom you described are called TERRORISTS among Iraqis, not resistance.

“Anyway, there is no occupation anymore.”
LOL… HAHAHAHA. HOHOHOHO.HEEHEHEHE. Man! I haven’t laughed for a long time like this. thanks for making me laugh. Well, tell that to the U.S. guard who takes Saddam to his cell. Or tell you what? Tell this to the U.S. private security contractors who accompany the “Iraqi” politicians to the stage for a news conference. I think they may believe you. But us?!!! Nah! It’s an old song. No one listens to it anymore.

CMAR II said...

BT,

Well, you said it, “THEY BELIEVE”, not WE! Let them call themselves whatever they like. Such people whom you described are called TERRORISTS among Iraqis, not resistance.
AND
Resistance includes people defending their occupied country by fighting the occupier, not the civilians...If [the Iraqi president and US ambassador convince them to lay down their arms], they would be a stab to the terrorists like Zarqawi whom he and his men kill innocents along with occupiers.

It would be a stab, but do you realize that you are implying those "resistors" are currently in league with Zarqawi? TAI keeps insisting they are not. But of course, that's ludicrous.

Who cares what YOU believe? The point is what the Resistance believes and that they are shooting bullets at people who are risking their lives to bring stability to Iraq. Do you expect any US soldier to distinguish between someone who wants to kill them just because they are there and those who want to kill them because because they are protecting a democratically elected government or because they represent the possibility of freedom of speech and thought for Iraqis?

Maybe we can get some segment of the resistance to lay down their arms. That would be preferable. But either way they should be brought in -- regardless of why you or they think they are murdering people. As the old saying goes, they should be brought in Dead or Alive.


“Anyway, there is no occupation anymore.”
"LOL… HAHAHAHA. HOHOHOHO.HEEHEHEHE. Man! I haven’t laughed for a long time like this. thanks for making me laugh. Well, tell that to the U.S. guard who takes Saddam to his cell. Or tell you what? Tell this to the U.S. private security contractors who accompany the “Iraqi” politicians to the stage for a news conference. I think they may believe you. But us?!!! Nah! It’s an old song. No one listens to it anymore."


You cannot possibly be as stupid as you are pretending lately. If you were, you couldn't breath. The Iraqi politicians are not prisoners of their private security guards as you seem to be implying. Also those politicians actually ARE Iraqi so your putting "quotations" on the word is pretty childish. They were hardly MY choice, and they weren't Bush's either. They were the choice of your countrymen. Deal with it. If the elected Iraqi government wants the "occupation" to leave, they should just call a "press conference" and say so. No general or President could keep those forces in "Iraq" if that happened. So Iraq is no more "occupied" than "Germany" or "Austrailia" or "Puerto Rico". Perhaps the reason they don't ask the occupiers to leave is that they don't want "civil war" or "ethnic cleansing" or the "break up" of the country or "the end" of elected government in Iraq. Perhaps they don't do it because they "love" their country more than "you" do.

If the occupiers did leave tomorrow, BT. You would be the first man sneaking out of the country, so drop the "B.S."

As for the issue of Islamic extremism, I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. Unfortunately, I don't have to go all the way to the M.E. find it. They came here looking for us. They still are here. They march in the streets claiming that they will determine the limits of our freedom. And they are looking for you every day. I feel sorry for you that there are so many more of them where you live. The point is that it is dug-in in the M.E. from Pakistan to Egypt, and the US didn't put it there, as hard as that is to imagine.

RhusLancia said...

TAI, you mentioned "Chalabi" and "Allawi" several times in your back & forth with cmar ii as being exiles in favor with the US and riding back into Iraq on US tanks and so on. Oh, and links to CIA, MOSSAD, etc. You use them as examples of the "illegitimacy" of the Iraqi gov't. OK, I'll admit they are (or were) US favorites, but didn't Allawi get spanked in the election? And didn't al-Sadr's list pick up some seats? The same al-Sadr that fought the US a while ago? And the same one that the US couldn't take out at the time because it might inflame Iraqis?

You also asked if there was a shortage of Iraqi politicians in Iraq. Actually, isn't there? How could someone gain representative political experience inside Iraq when you-know-who was in power? Doesn't it make some sense that Iraqi politicians will either have to be imported, or that they'll need some time to gain experience?

Anonymous said...

When Saddam invaded Kuwait and tried to install a new government to end the hostility and economic warfare that was being undertaken by the Sabbah family, the world (with the US at its head) went ballistic and SCREAMED that this was unnaceptable and that Iraq had to leave the monarchy in place at he risk of total war...

Yet, when the US invaded Iraq and established a new government loyal to the US interests, the same hypocrates who sought Iraq's destruction in 1990 were applauding the 'introduction of democracy & freedom) to the poor ignorant Iraqis...

When Germany invaded France in WWII and installed a French government loyal to Germany, the people fighting this government were called "French Resistance" and the government established under Germany was never recognized or acknowledged (in-fact, its members were later tried and executed for treason).

The native Americans (the true Americans) were spot on when they spoke of the criminals who came to their lands and who would later commit geneocide against the natives to steal the land as people who spoke in "forked toungues".

EdoRiver said...

I am tempted to gang up on CMAR II, but I have so many high school friends back in my hometown who are slightly less intelligent than CMAR II ,but they believe VERY SINCERELY that they know best what is good for IRAQ. They like our "beloved PResident" is the doctor who knows the sickness and can prescribe the accurate remedy without killing the patient with their sincerity.

This is what is so frustrating when you meet these people in the small towns of America. They believe so sincerely that they know President Bush is "doing the right thing" and eventually Iraq will name a holiday after President Bush in gratitude. They are sure the medicine they are giving to Iraq will eventually cure "any and all diseases" and if this medicine doesn'T.

WHOSE FAULT IS IT? Of course it can't be Dr. Bush, no he never makes mistakes, it must be the corrupt nature of Iraqi political leaders who are at fault. No, Dr. Bush never lies, never has anything but the purest motives for all good peace-loving people everywhere. IF you are so ungrateful to the medicine of Dr. BUSH, you must be a devil or crazy.

So sad, but these people who think like this simply have no experience in seeing the world from the other person's point of view. All their friends are just like them. All their children go to the same kind of "safe, good school". Their outside world consists of watching TV about how "others" from minorities in the US, let alone foreign countries live.

I go back to the US to visit my relatives, and the most common question is, "How can you reject America and live among "those people"? However my honest answer, is very difficult. It is true that I am not accepted by most Japanese I see outside of the classroom. I experience the "fear factor" towards foreigners every week (not every day) but my experience is NOTHING compared to the treatment of Africans here in Japan. I am at least a) white, and b) American. People from even lower status countries Plus black skin have a truly difficult, "cold time" here because of the fear of foreigners.

BUt the Internet is a miracle, Praise be to GOD, for the development of the Internet, at least CMAR ii is in a kind of dialoge with others. There are so many whose minds are like closed coffins. The more I think about it the more I appreciate CMAR ii and the other anon bloggers at least visiting this site or other Iraqi blog sites and typing their memorized point of views...this is at least one small step towards friendship, I think, I hope.

Foo Shea said...

CMARII and TAI. The same man having a long and elaborate but increasingly repetitive conversation all by himself.

"But that is the tactic of the manic pro-war supporter. Lie, ignore the truth, avoid the details, switch and bait and then lie again.

You keep raising Saddam's name because that is the ONLY game you know how to play.

We all realize Saddam is the past." - TAI


TAI. Who constantly lies, ignores the truth, avoids the details, switches the bait and then lies again. By his own definition his own worst enemy.

Saddam is the present. The elements that lead to Saddam's success survive today and will as long as their are primates that are armed and walk upright. This is the tragedy. The weak-minded fools TAI tries to recruit to his cause will always be tomorrow's Nazis. Easily lead dupes who are more then easily bought and can never be anything more then informers and thugs.

TAI and CMARII issue from the same source, and they are both wrong.

0023 said...

emigre...ahem, I mean foo shea. We're all the same person having this long elaborate conversation with ourself. You've made up your mind on this. Who are you still talking to? Get over one thing or the other. Make up your mind.

misneach said...

BT, off the subject, is Radio Sawa the U.S. Voice of America's arabic branch?

0023 said...

BT,

I'm an American, and I must say, you're absolutely right. We have no access to the news. What do I have to choose from here? CNN? FOXNews? MSNBC? baghdadtreasure.blogspot.com?
None of the resources an American has access to can give the full story. They all carp on what they want to carp on, and ignore underlying details and stats for the emotional picture.

Blech. I'm turning them all off. If I'm going to be ignorant, at least I can do that on my own terms.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Ladies and Gentlemen.

I would like to define some of the people who come here who bash me and BT and other Iraq.s

Let us stop to consider a few points before we go any further.

Who writes this blog? Baghdad Treasure does, a man of mixed Sunni-Shia heritage.

What does he write and comment about? He writes of life in Iraq, the life he has seen in Iraq since he of course, is Iraqi. He writes of life before 2003 and after, having had first-hand experience.

Who supports BT and this blog? I do, as well as many other Iraqis, too many to list now. Also, many non-Iraqis.

Why do we support BT? Because he speaks of what our hearts feel. He speaks what our people feel. He writes about Aadhamiya, where I have relatives at this point in time.

He writes of Baghdad, where I have more relatives and best friends as well.

He writes of Iraq where I have so many relatives I can not count - uncles, aunts, cousins and so on.

And I am not the only one. Just because I am outside Iraq does not mean my bonds are cut with the country of my eternal heritage.

So, in essence, this blog is written by an Iraqi and supported by other Iraqis.

Is it not then entirely bizarre that someone who has 1) never set foot in Iraq; 2) will not set foot in Iraq; 3) has no ties to Iraq; 4) does not know the ways of the Iraqis; 5) cannot speak Arabic; 6) cannot read the Quran; should so freely tell us to shut up, tell us we do not know what is happening to our own people?

Is this not the height or arrogance and imperialist? I seem to remember the British saying black Africans could not manage their affairs and thus imperialism was needed.

Indeed.

Always, always keep that in mind.

Thankfully, and seriously, I thank God with all the strength in my heart, many Americans are not as ignorant nor as arrogant as those who come here telling BT and other Iraqis to shut up.

In fact, I would say the arrogant pro-war lot is dwindling as many realize they have erred, that they were led astray and now seek answers.

Genuine answers for genuine questions.

And they do so politely. In the course of having my own blog, I have met hundreds of Americans who have warmed my heart because they retain the compassion and justice that I know still exists in America.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Rhuslancia,

You ask good questions.

But you have to remember that Iraq was a developing, very literate society from well before Saddam came to power.

Tens of thousands of Iraqis travelled abroad for advanced degrees, having gone to England, the US, France, Germany, and the USSR.

Many, who formed the backbone of the Middle Class, were influenced by the West and understood the principles of representative government.

They were literally shut out in the government-building process in the summer of 2003.

Many Iraqis who had left during Saddam's time and who were more importantly NOT affiliated with exile political groups sought to return to Iraq after April 9, 2003 and influence change.

But they too were shut out. I would ask you to refer to the December 2002 London conference of Iraq's exiled opposition. Look up the literature on that. You will see the same faces there are the same faces in power in Iraq today.

They had already carved out how they would share up the government in Iraq. No room for internal Iraqis.

Once these groups got into Iraq and saw how much of the pie there really was to be had, they squabbled some more.

Meanwhile, Hundreds of Iraq's intelligenstia have already been assassinated, kidnapped and thousands more have fled the country realizing this community was targeted.

Just because Saddam was in power doesn't mean people forgot a more egalitarian form of governance was possible.

I was talking to a fellow blogger about this and I remarked how Iraq could have been the best place for a true first Arab democracy to take root.

Unfortunately, the process in the past three years has been abysmal.

Truth About Iraqis said...

You all know Fayrouz, of course.

But today she put up a review of Assassin's Gate, which is both poignant and timely for the arguments here:

The Assassins' Gate, The Book
I was reluctant to read this book when it was first recommended to me. Now that I read it, I wish I took the advice earlier.

George Packer's excellent writing style made this book a smooth read even with the enormous amount of information he presented. I'm not surprised it was a 2006 Pulitzer Prize finalist in the General Non-Fiction category.

George explained in detail how Iraq's plan for regime change was presented to former president Bill Clinton in 1998. Clinton figured post-war Iraq wouldn't be rosy. So, he let the plan collect dust. I don't need to tell you who wrote the plan. You probably figured it out yourself.

The book also introduces Kanan Makiya to readers. I heard this name before from Iraqis and non-Iraqis. I heard good and bad opinions in regard to his work and motives. I know he's a smart person, and I have no doubt he wants the best for Iraq. But, he's definitely unrealistic in the way he envisioned post-war Iraq.

Then, there's how Jay Garner was chosen to administer post-war Iraq then dropped. I favored Garner over Bremer. Since I learned he disliked Chalabi and the INC, I like him more.

Garner was in favor of keeping the Iraqi army to help bring law and order in Iraq. He also favored a milder version of the debaathification. The guy was logical, and he probably knew most Iraqis were Baathists by force. Removing them from their jobs wasn't a wise decision.

But, Garner wasn't favored by D.C. standards and it resulted in his quick replacement.

When he was in Iraq, George Packer noticed how Iraqis look tired and old. On the other hand, Iraqis were surprised how he looked young considering his age. I moved to the West 11 years ago and still find it hard to guess people's ages. That's very Iraqi.

The book explains in detail why we failed in Iraq. The one reason I agree most is Iraqis living inside Iraq should have been given the biggest role in post-war Iraq. Even if they took the wrong decisions, it would've still been their decisions and not an outside entity, that imposes its rules on them and tells them what's best for them.

CMAR II said...

Wow, TAI!

Your post at 5/20/2006 11:21 PM is a great defense of Saddam's Ba'athist organization. Saddam and his brother will probably want to have it framed...so will every Ba'athist official who used his position to oppress his neighbors and peers.

Next, please enlighten me, O Sage of History, on how the Allies ruined Germany through de-nazification.

I guess you're right. The US should have chased Saddam out and then setup some guy who was most likely to take his place if his sons weren't there. They should never have imagined enfranchising those who were "locked out of the establishment" under Saddam.

And as for coordinating elections so Iraqis could choose any leaders they like (including retards like Sadr who hated the US): "Ghast!! What arrogance!!"

Hmmmm...wasn't the US accused of helping Chalabi and Allawi in the last election? What happened to those guys? If they were the choices of "the occupiers", I'm sure they were shoo-ins to be running the show now.

CMAR II said...

By the way,

I *love* Fayrouz. Fayrouz was put on the Iraqi Bloggers Central blogroll probably before it was anywhere else. It is still listed there prominently as are most blogs of any merit -- including this one. (Jeffery doesn't discriminate based on whether he agrees or likes the blogger.)

I can verify that she regularly checks in and provides, in the comments, her unique and essential input whenever she thinks it is required.

Foo Shea said...

"Jeffery doesn't discriminate based on whether he agrees or likes the blogger." -CMARII

He certainly used to, and so did CMARII. Before Iraq Blog Count put them both to shame. Iraq Blog Count shamed quite a few characters in TAI's charade. Did CMARII's former wonder-puppy, hoop jumping Hancock, care about freedom of speech or about the Iraqi blogger? No, she cared about her link from emigre and her own safety. Meanwhile, she is probably collecting the rest of the Jarrar families IPs so she can report them all to the FBI.

As far as TAI's claims to unity go, "Iraq" bloggers do not all talk about CMARII etc together in some cosy little close knit club. Some Iraq bloggers send TAI emails telling TAI he is racist (he certainly is a bigot). The only Iraq blogger TAI can regularly "trade" links with is a former Baathist and current war supporter, any Iraq blogger worth their salt would be sickened by it.

It's no surprise that the TAIs and CMARIIs of the blog world are so pro-Fayrouz. She's the only easily bought one. As for emigre, a fish-rib in both CMARII and TAI's throats I would say. The CMARIIs can't stand that a no-war non-American linked to and supported democracy for Iraqi bloggers and the TAIs can't stand that a blogger with Zionist sympathies was undercutting the CMARIIs better then they could.

0023

I see no reason why the "emigre" you are talking to should make up her mind any way other then she already has. You stuffed up big time trying to "change her mind", didn't you.

I spit on Bush
I spit on
his advisors

I spit on the resistance
and I spit
on their writers.

Apologise.

CMAR II said...

Foo,

Doesn't look like there much of anybody you like. Your claims about IBC and my (rather cobwebbed site right now) censuring the blogroll based on agreement with the bloggers' opinions is a lie with true hostility to the truth. For example, Raed, Riverbend, and the whole Jarrar family have *always* been linked in both places. Fayrouz was concerned for her own safety? How mercenary. (sheesh, you're an *-hole)

Good blog rolls discriminate on inherent merit, which seems to be the criterion Jeffrey uses. Iraqi Blog Count is a nice site, but they have a different mission. Comparing the to IBC or this site is extremely naive.

CMAR II said...

That is:

"Comparing the Iraqi Blog Count to Iraqi Bloggers Central or to this site is extremely naive.

Mad Canuck said...

Hey BT,

I would really give some thought to the vaccine story - it sounds a bit fishy to me.

The only imaginable reason someone would want to intentionally kill a baby is for some sort of "ethnic cleansing" (trying to wipe out all members of a particular ethnic or religious group). But, if that were the case, wouldn't they want to "vaccinate" the adults in the household too? And, if you're doing that, wouldn't it be easier to just use a gun, a knife, or a bomb rather than this elaborate façade where the mother of the child got a good look at the murderers and was left alive to describe what they look like?

I think Fatima's point about possible bad vaccine is very valid. Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) is very sensitive to temperature: according to the CDC, it needs to be stored between 2 degrees and 8 degrees Celsius at all times, and needs to be shipped in an insulated/refrigerated container to keep it at that temperature. Vaccines such as IPV are made by cultivating the virus in chicken eggs, and since they are derived from eggs, and contain egg-material, they can spoil like eggs if not kept refrigerated.

Of course, with the heat outside and the unreliable electricity in Baghdad, keeping the vaccines refrigerated so they do not spoil is difficult. And, unfortunately, serious health problems or death can result from being injected with a spoiled vaccine.

As far as I heard, it was only these three houses the “team” visited. Other families who have infants said they were not visited by any health team.

It is also possible they stopped visiting houses once they realized that they were working with spoiled vaccine and that people were getting sick and dying from it.

Rubin said...

Historic Day for Iraq..videos


Prime Minister Maliki Takes the Oath

Prime Minister Maliki introduces Parlementry ministers

Iraq's Ministers take Oath of Office



Ministers inaugurated May 20, 2006

1. Dr Barham Salih, deputy prime minister

2. Salam al-Zawba'i, deputy prime minister

3. Nuri al-Maliki, acting minister of the interior

4. Salam al-Zawba'i, acting minister of defense

5. Dr Husayn al-Shahrastani, minister of oil

6. Baqir Jabr al-Zubaydi, minister of finance

7. Hoshayr Zebari, minister of foreign affairs

8. Hashim al-Shibli, minister of justice

9. Ali Baban, minister of planning

10. Karim Wahid, minister of electricity

11. Dr Ali al-Shammari, minister of health

12. Dr Khudayyir al-Khuza'i, minister of education

13. Dr Abd Dhiyab al-Ajili, minister of higher education and scientific research

14. Dr Abd-al-Falah al-Sudani, minister of trade

15. Fawzi al-Hariri, minister of industry

16. Dr Karim Mahdi Salih, minister of transportation

17. Muhammad Tawfiq Allawi, minister of communications

18. Mrs Bayan Daza'i, minister of housing ad construction

19. Riyad Ghurayyib, minister of municipalities

20. Dr Latif Rashid, minister of water resources

21. Mahmud Muhammad Jawad Al Radi, minister of labor and social affairs

22. Dr Ra'id Fahmi Jahid, minister of science and technology

23. Mrs Nirmin Uthman, minister of environment

24. Jasim Muhammad Ja'far, minister of youth and sports

25. As'ad Kamal Muhammad Abdallah al-Hashimi, minister of culture

26. Mrs. Wijdan Mikha'il, minister of human rights

27. Dr Abd-al-Samad Rahman Sultan, minister of immigration and displaced persons

28. Dr Liwa Sumaysim, minister of state for tourism and antiquities

29. Dr Barham Salih, acting minister of national security affairs

30. Engineer Adil al-Asadi, minister of the civil society affairs

31. Dr Rafi Hiyad al-Isawi, minister of state for foreign affairs

32. Dr Safa al-Safi, minister of state for the Council of Representatives affairs

33. Dr Sa'd Tahir Abd Khalaf al-Hashimi, minister of state for the governorates affairs

34. Mrs Fatin Abd-al-Rahman Mahmud, minister of state for women's affairs

35. Dr Akram al-Hakim, minister of state for the national dialogue affairs

36. Muhammad Abbas al-Uraybi, minister of state

37. Ali Muhammad Ahmad, minister of state

38. Hasan Radi Kazim al-Sari, minister of state

Anonymous said...

I think the culture of Mexico
is much much Superior to American culture

And the government institutions
economic system,banking and judicial system ... the local security systems ... All Much Much superior to Anything the
old rich white men of America
could ever come up with ...

Its just odd that the 15 million
Mexicans and 1 million more a year
want to go to Amnerica ...
I just can not figure it out??

On legitimate resistance ...
Simple fact is you have an elected parliament ...

That parliament can decide the status of US forces ... once the do ... then thats the law until
a new vote or a new parliament ...

Last year al-Sadrs group demanded the Parliament vote on demanding
US forces leave immediately ...
The parliament voted NO to that proposal.

Obeying Laws has to start somewhere ... You resistance fighters will find that if you stop all the killing and roadside bombs the American forces would leave sooner .... and then hopefully you can make your peace
with the Shia.

Iraqi patrol with the Americans
because they need training on how to respond ... leave them alone for 6 months and you will find that the American prescence will
diminish each month ....

If US forces felt that Iraq would unify if we were gone we would have left already ...

But we fear way way too many
Former regime elements would re-arm and then assault the new government possibly with heavy
weapons from Syria ....

So US forces are building the strength of the new government forces .... simply hide your
weapons for 6 months and you will see a drastic removal of American forces.

By the way Bremmer wanted
"local caucuses" to form Iraqs first Parliament ... Bremmer wanted Iraqi people to gather in their towns cities and villiages
and in the bigger cities in proportioned distrcts to gather and to decide on LOCAL people to send to the Parliament ...

This nationwide election from Party Lists was Sistani and the United Nations.

Now ... in the future this to can be changed ... Iraq is a brand new Country the People Can Shape
it as the see fit by voting ...
Iraqi people can study US System of elections where our Congress
is formed LOCALLY districts
vote on people to represent their district in Washington perhaps
Iraqi people would prefer that.

Our senate is a higher level body
2 senators are voted for each State to form our senate ...

Iraqi can have something similar
for each of your main regions
perhaps 10 people from each
to form a body in addition to
Congressional districts ....
You are free to change your system ... demand changes to the constitution if you want the Parliament to be formed differently .... But do it peacefully and by voting.

Put your guns and explosives away
and great progress can be made ...
If US forces wanted to kill more Iraq we would do it with airplanes ... Continuing attacks on Americans and new Government forces will Only result in more innocent deaths possibly your own

Give the new Government a chance

EdoRiver said...

The latest anon makes many good points. naturally someone will disagree and quote and rant extensively on the one point they can find to disagree with ;-)
That can't be helped. We can't criticize everyone we disagree with. we have to learn tolleration of differences.

EdoRiver said...

I wish to share a Moroccan Joke-story with you.
A Moslem, a Jew and a Christian were sitting in a cafe talking about Heaven. They agreed that it was a difficult place to get into, but each one thought he would have a better chance than the others.
"You have to have the right clothes," the Christian said. "I always wear a jacket and a tie." they started out and whent they got close to Heaven the Moslem and the Jew sopped walking and the Christian went on to the door of Heaven.
Our Lord Solomon who guards the door said, "Where are you going?"
"Inside", the Nazarene answered.
"Who are you?"
"My name is John."
"Stand back!" said our Lord Solomon.
Next the Jew and the Moslem spoke together. The Moslem said, "He didn't get in, but we will."
"I'll go first,"said the Jew. "That't right, You should go" the Moslem told him. So the Jew walked up to the door of Heaven. And Our Lord Solomon said, "Where are you going?"
"Inside."
"Who are you?"
"Yaqoub"
"Stand Back!"
The Moslem saw this and said to himself,"That's that. Neither of thm got in. Now I'll try." He walked until he got to the door of Heaven. The he pulled the hood of his djellaba down over his face. And Our Lord Solomon said to him,"Where are you going?"
"Inside."
"Who are you?"
"I am the Prophet Mohammed," And he went in. The Jew was watching. He said to himself,"If he can get in, then so can I." And he took a sack and filled it with sticks of wood and slung it over his shoulder, and walked up to the door.
"Where are you going? and Who are you?" asked Our Lord Solomon.
The Jew stuck his foot in the door.
"Inside. I am the Prophet Mohammed's manservant," he said.
And the Jew went inside.
The Christian had been watching. He was afraid to try tro get in by lying, and so he went back to his country and told everyone that Heaven did not exist"
Translated by Paul Bowles, an American short story writer.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Anton,
As far as I heard from people, at least my relatives and friends, Baghdad Sniper has died and that another one replaced him. The new sniper’s name is called “Fallujah Sniper”. Videos of this man are widely spread now among teenagers, students and young men. One of his videos shows how he was trying to shoot a US soldier from distance but couldn’t because the soldier was talking to a civilian for about 30 minutes. The sniper withdrew and said he couldn’t shoot because he did not want the civilian to be hurt. Of course, this is as it is exactly in the video which many people outside Iraq believe it is untrue. I said it previously that the lack of security and control of the country led the insurgents, whether terrorists or resistance, to have their own way of convincing people. They started with washing the brains of the teenagers and young men to carry out their operations. This is a dangerous issue in which the US is completely ignoring. It also raises the question of why do they keep ignoring such a dangerous thing? What is the purpose? Hurt Iraqis? Or hurt themselves?

Treasure of Baghdad said...

CMAR,
“do you realize that you are implying those "resistors" are currently in league with Zarqawi? TAI keeps insisting they are not.”
Well, I join my voice to my brother, TAI. The risistors are in continous fighting against Zarqawi.
TAI, I think you spent a lot of time on explaining this to CMAR who really does not want to understand!

“Who cares what YOU believe? The point is what the Resistance believes and that they are shooting bullets at people who are risking their lives to bring stability to Iraq.”
Oh yeah?!!! Really? Who are these people? Tell me tell me tell me! The ones who killed the families in Hadeetha in cold blod while they were sleeping? The ones who abused prisoners in Abu Ghraib? The ones who shoot civilians and then say “sorry, it was a mistake?”, the ones who drive their ugly tanks on the sidewlks of Baghdad destroying them?, the ones who convinced the whole world that there were Weapons of Mass Destruction while they weren’t? tell me tell me tell me.

And who are you to say that who cares what I believe? I am the Iraqi, I am the one whom your troops destroyed my country, I am the one who is going to tell the whole world what is really going on in this burning country, I am the one who is telling the truth- not your brain-washing media, I am the ones who one day dance on my land when you pull your ugly nose out of here.

“The Iraqi politicians are not prisoners of their private security guards as you seem to be implying. Also those politicians actually ARE Iraqi so your putting "quotations" on the word is pretty childish.”

LOOOOOOOOOOL. CMAR, baby, you need to see a pysychatrist. It is unhealthy to stay like this. you may hurt yourself one day. Politicians are not prisioners. Hahahahahahahahah. That is the funniest sentence I ever heard! Ok, when you come to Iraq [although I know you are a coward as you fear bombs and weapons], show me if any of the politicians are really living and walking among the people and freely in the street taking care of them. huh, not prisoners! My ***.

“If the occupiers did leave tomorrow, BT. You would be the first man sneaking out of the country, so drop the "B.S."”
Habibi, I am going to leave the country as many Iraqis do, even if your troops pull out [although I doubt they withdraw]. I am going to leave it for the thugs that destroyed it, including those who consider themselves Iraqis. I don’t have the honor to be living among thugs and gangs and international mafias like yours. Go and read the NY Times story and see how what kind of democrasy your country brought to us. go and see how this democrasy collapsed the last hope we had. You should be ashamed of yourself when you read it. But don’t worry, I will pass the tissues for you when you cry out of regret. See how nice I am! Hahahahahahahahahaha.


“I feel sorry for you that there are so many more of them where you live.”
Well ask your country about that. It is the one that brought them here. We did not have that before your troops polluted our land.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Edoriver,
Your words about the people beleiving in Bush reminded me with some people I met in the US who were really happy that we are “libertaed”. They told me things that really made me laugh. They are convinced that Bush is the angel that God sent to save the world. Isn’t that so funny. I felt so sad for them. they are deceived and the problem is the US media keeps deceiving them.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Misneach,
“BT, off the subject, is Radio Sawa the U.S. Voice of America's arabic branch?”
Umm, I don’t think it’s the VOA! But it is American as they when they broadcast, they identify themselves as A US International media service. It is one of the radio stations which people like in Iraq as it broadcast Arabic, Kurdish and American songs continuously.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

CMAR,
Well, I think you should take your scoccer ball and play in another field. Accusing TAI of being a Baathist and a Saddamist is an old game. You accused Riverbend of being so. What happened to her? Ha? She won prizes and medals because she is talking about the truth that you and your fellows don’t want to understand.
TAI, is a real, genuine, true SON OF IRAQ, Iraq that we know, Iraq that we loved, not the one you and your fellow troops destroyed. Get out of here and don’t be nosy.

MC,
You and Fatima may be right. The problem is that everything is lost in this country. No one knows what is really happening here.

Truth About Iraqis said...

BT, LOL, i just translated what you said about the soccer ball into Arabic and I can't stop laughing!

Thanks for those words, brother, coming from you, it means everything.

I don't blame you at all for leaving, wallah. In fact, I tell everyone I care about to leave for now.

One day, after the disease is finished we will go home, and we will kiss the ground and we will build together.

We will build in Basra and Kut, in Najaf and Karbala, in Falluja and Ramadi, in Tikrit and Sulaimaniya, in Mosul and Dhok.

You said something, one day the Iraqis will dance.

Ya rab. Let us hope so. We have suffered so much, so much.

Keep writing, please.

RhusLancia said...

TAI, I just don't get how you can support "the resistance". Don't you see that they are killing Iraqis and giving the US forces itchy trigger fingers?

I just read the Time article on what is known about Haditha at this point. However the investigation ends up, the event was terrible and unnecessary.

I also read today about Iraq's new Cabinet and how a bomb blew up 19 people and injured 58. By your descriptions early on, that bomb must not've been "resistance" because it blew up innocents, therefore it was terrorists. Why don't you just blame the whole lot? Much of what you say seems to start with the premise that the US is evil and then works backwards. Nevermind the 19 dead day laborers, the "resistence" no wait "terrorists" are jsut mad that the US is there.

The time for violence in Iraq has passed hasn't it? For the "resistance" to change Iraq's course now, after all that's been done and all that's happened, would take more support than they have, and more blood than Iraqis should have to give. It's time to vote & lobby.

I agree with the Anonymous who ended with "Give the new Government a chance": stop blowing each other up, put your guns away, let the new Parliament accept the MNF presence, or set a "timeline" for withdrawal, or say bye-bye to them. I also like your post from 5/21/2006 11:20 AM, TAI - the one in which you talk about building Iraq's future and not helping those who would drag it down.

EdoRiver said...

If we were all poor,
If we were all poor compared to our white American counterpart, and black, and living in the US. "When?"
During the 1960's or '70's, '80's '90's?
There would be those among us out throwing rocks at the police helicopters...... Yeah, it relieved the stress, and maybe got them on the 7PM news if it didn't get them shot.. And there were those among us whose teenage sons ran through the streets of OUR neighborhood,
OUR neighborhood, not whitey's, breaking store windows, torching liquor stores with molotov cocktails, breaking into small businesses stealing TVs, shirts, hamburger patties....

behind them the guys in blue
with their beer guts and billy clubs raised over their heads ready to knock the living snot out of those SOB's....

All of this would be on the nightly NBC news at 7PM. White Americans sitting in their white living rooms, in their cozy white neighborhoods, where the only black people they see are the gardeners, the nannies, the garbage collectors, Yes, they would sit and watch the news and the husband would look over at the wife and PROBABLY say something like,
"Those stupid n*****s,

look at them destroying their own nest, torching the innocent liquor store owners for some crime the blacks are responsible for. Thank God for the police, keeping them away from us (if this white family happens to live in LA). They're getting what they deserve. They're all a bunch of criminals, blah blah blah.

Meanwhile there are those among us, middle class, relatives of pro athletes, or just with sons and daughters trying to get them to concentrate on their studies, "

"get an education", get a better life, don't be like your old man,
get a decent job as.....a gas station attendant? a lawyer? a doctor, an elementary school teacher?? a post office employee?

We watch the same TV news, and we know, At least some of us know,
one way or another, that those Black Panthers, those wild teenagers (where is our son??) out there looking for any white face to smash their car, raise hell, cause mischief, or
beat that face in (refer to the trucker who was dragged from his cab and beaten while being video taped on TV, (Rodney King's a little different from this story)
we know they, the looters and shooters are just playing the WHITE Man's game, which
THE Man loves to play,

it's the game of force, and whip-ass , the White Establishment mostly wins this game....well there is a draw, and the poor suffer more because it happens in their neighborhood.

So the situation in Iraq,
If I were Iraqi now. I would sympathise with my "bro's" in the street. No I wouldn't know which one was driven by a cause, and which one was driven by greed, any more than I would if I were black and living in Compton, LA in the 1980's. Basically the game of force, is a losing game,

however noble, ancient and traditional, it is still a losing game...the White/US establishment will "win" or at least draw the score, and the people who will suffer more, will definitely be me and my bro's in the Iraqi 'hood. It WON'T be the white middle class bloggers living in the US who suffer.

This is why I agree with the anon, and with TAI and Treasure on CERTain points. We have to get on with life. We have to swallow some of that, and focus on saving our communities. The sooner we do that the sooner we can tell the US to get out.

Of course that won't solve our problems. We will still be cutting each other over other prejudices that the US presence is distracting us from. (If I were Iraqi)

Just like in the ghetto. The police finally left us alone. And what did we do, but kept on destroying most of our best young people with drugs and crime and greed, and stress. Man, the police stopped even answering our mamma's calls for help because they thought it was a waste of resources to separate two criminals from killing each other (and maybe there was a little police psyop on the side that was encouraging the distrust between rival groups.).

Access to eduction and technology, and money still goes through the white man's world...but its been proven that the better strategy is to learn "his" games and then become the master...The oil game is just one of them..We need some kind of peace/escape to get our sons and daughters into the universities to anticipate and invest in the next technology economic step. This is what the Japanese did after WWII.

We all agree the terrorists are dinosaurs, but they have souls....(this is all a fantasy, if I were Iraqi)
regards,

Foo Shea said...

"Those who target Iraqi civilians are not resistance. Those who target mosques and churches are not resistance.

Those who attack Shia simply because they are Shia, or attack Sunni because they are Sunni are not resistance." -TAI


The claim that brutish elements which are marxist by-products are "not resistance" is basically the same claim pro-war bloggers use to excuse abuse in Abu Ghraib under American administration. Torture, Bush apologists allege, was the work of unauthorised lowly "rogue" soldiers and "not the marines". In both cases, the claim is false. In both cases, violent acts are sanctioned and supported "under the carpet" by top level administration and a "work culture" that is very very, very, unhealthy. I really cannot see much difference between TAI and CMARII at all.

Edoriver

Paul Bowles got the translation mixed up. Common error. It was the Jew who got in as Abraham, the Muslim followed as Ibrāhīm and the Christian failed when he said "Lincoln". Then the Christian went home (to America) and told everyone that Christianity was not an adaptation of a popular agricultural pagan folk tale about seasonal sacrifice, but that a white man in a robe had brought him back to life and now please buy an Easter Egg.

CMARII

I see you are avoiding issues again. It seems you cannot refer to Jeffrey Schuster’s blog by its false name "Iraqi Bloggers Central". When you can admit OPENLY that his blog is far from the center of anything but his own navel, you might like to change his url. How about jeffreyshitcreek.com.

BT

I have to disagree with both you and 'TAI' on "Accusing TAI of being a Baathist and a Saddamist is an old game" and "You mentioned Saddam again. We Iraqis no longer mention him".

An old trick it may be, but sweeping Saddam under the carpet is unhelpful long term. If certain factions on the left want to consider their hidden agenda a serious alternative to CMARII then those factions have to confess and make reparations. Twelve Hail Mary's will not do. Saddam's legacy is something that is going to stuff up countless childrens’ lives in the future, on top of the war in general. It has to be addressed. It has to be talked about, yes out of range of American 'America Is Great' opportunists but no don't pretend it's not an issue. You'll just alienate people otherwise.

No I'm not an Iraqi and no Baathism is not an isolated Iraqi phenomena. It is a global problem that has turned up in various guises on various continents. And before you open your lard trap CMARII - Iraqis need to be the ones that chose the time and place for discussing Saddam, not Americans. So forget about raking the trial coals – it’s none of your business unless you’re willing to concede responsibility for aiding and abetting Saddam or are willing to discuss the dysfunctional document that you’re still calling the patriot act. In fact, I would say this is one reason the trail has proven so un-news worthy - there are no Americans in the cage with Saddam, as there rightfully ought to be.

Rhuslancia

The "neo government" has had it's chance. It is screwed.

Foo Shea said...

That was "trial" not "trail".

Treasure of Baghdad said...

TAI,
LOL… I think it sounded so Iraqi, moo? I used to say that when we were in school. I was very Mushakis. Heehee.

Rhuslancia ,

“Don't you see that they are killing Iraqis and giving the US forces itchy trigger fingers?”
For God’s sake! I am going to say this for the hundreds time now. What is happening in killing the innocents is not resistance. Why don’t you want to understand the difference?! The people, who were killed the day the government was announced, were not killed by the resistance. Terrorists killed them. This is obvious, 1+1=2. Is it that difficult. Why do we have to say there is a difference million times if the others don’t understand or seem not to want to understand it?

“However the investigation ends up, the event was terrible and unnecessary.”
What is the result? Tell me! Were the criminals brought to justice? Even though, it will never make Iraqis forget what happened.

“The time for violence in Iraq has passed hasn't it? For the "resistance" to change Iraq's course now, after all that's been done and all that's happened, would take more support than they have, and more blood than Iraqis should have to give. It's time to vote & lobby.”

That is a very logical thing to say. I support you in this. that is why I am happy that the Iraqi president and the US ambassador are meeting with the real resistance to make them lay weapons down and take part in the political process. As I said previously, it would be a slap on the face of the terrorists like Zarqawi.

“I agree with the Anonymous who ended with "Give the new Government a chance"”
I agree with Anonymous too. This government should be given a chance. The problem is that people are no longer patient. They have waited for decades for such “democratic” governments but they let them down by their continuous failure along with the US military in Iraq.
We hope, or let’s frame it like this: we want to believe that this government is for our best.

Francisco said...

5/20/2006 10:42 PM Truth about Iraqis said...

Who supports BT and this blog? I do, as well as many other Iraqis, too many to list now. Also, many non-Iraqis.

Well TAI, I do, eventhough I am not an Iraqui, been in Iraq, speek arabic, ...

Crude words. I support you Iraquis, the same way I support Americans or other human beings attacked or deprived from their inherent rights.

Liberty/Freedom is the possibility of making our own future by our own choices.

America' leaders have invaded Iraq not because Liberty/Freedom; Iraq has been invaded because of oil and satellite bussines.

I am really sorry foa American, Iraqui or whatever nationalities' casualties.

I truly belive this shouldn't be happening.

anton said...

“I agree with the Anonymous who ended with "Give the new Government a chance"”

I repeat what I said in another post: it's impossible to build a peaceful nation without sovereignty. For a lot of iraqis it is ok to aprove this US supported government as a way to get security back, and I really don't think they are wrong. But on the other hand a lot of others will always be contrary to an alliance with a country that in fact killed so many compatriots. And because they know that this government created by US is automatically obliged to pay for the weapons used to make his way to the power (white phosphorus and cluster bombs included). It's like the revolting chinese logic: if a person is condemned to death and killed, the family must pay for the bullet.

rhuslancia said...

BT:

What is happening in killing the innocents is not resistance. Why don’t you want to understand the difference?! The people, who were killed the day the government was announced, were not killed by the resistance. Terrorists killed them. This is obvious, 1+1=2. Is it that difficult. Why do we have to say there is a difference million times if the others don’t understand or seem not to want to understand it?

I know you've said it before, and I'm sorry you have to repeat it, but I just don;t get it. I guess I can't. Today, on the second day of your new government, a suicide bomber detonated himself inside a restaurant frequented by Iraqi police. Vive le Resistance! He killed three police officers. Vive le Resistance! Oh and nine others who were not police. So, um, maybe 1+1=2 doesn't cover it? Maybe 3/12*100 = 25% Vive le Resistance!; 9/12*100 = 75% "Terrorism"? I simplify it by saying, to myself and now to you, there are a dozen newly dead Iraqis today who should be still alive.

Of course I want it both ways: I want to say Abu Ghraib and Haditha are isolated incidents, and the works and actions of the MNF in general have better motives and/or results. This is simple to me: those events serve as "proof" to those who think the US is evil after the fact, wheras the daily actions of the "Resistance" (VlR!) paint them poorly on the whole to me. Where's the detailed investigation,, trial, and accountability of yesterday's bombing or today's? Will there be one? Or is there just too much of that coming from the "Resistance" (VlR!) to make it possible?

foo shea:
The "neo government" has had it's chance. It is screwed.

It's only 2 days old! I think Iraq has waited too long, but the new gov. is a good step.

Jeffrey said...

Rhuslancia,

Today, on the second day of your new government, a suicide bomber detonated himself inside a restaurant frequented by Iraqi police. Vive le Resistance! He killed three police officers. Vive le Resistance! Oh and nine others who were not police. So, um, maybe 1+1=2 doesn't cover it? Maybe 3/12*100 = 25% Vive le Resistance!; 9/12*100 = 75% "Terrorism"? I simplify it by saying, to myself and now to you, there are a dozen newly dead Iraqis today who should be still alive.

Okay, that was pretty good.

*

Truth About Iraqis said...

BT,

You were Mushakis? Hahaha, I don't believe it! What did you do?

DISCLAIMER for the NON-ARABS: Mushakis has nothing to do with terrorism or resistance or US occupation : 0 )

Truth About Iraqis said...

I never said the US was evil.

Quoth me:

Thankfully, and seriously, I thank God with all the strength in my heart, many Americans are not as ignorant nor as arrogant as those who come here telling BT and other Iraqis to shut up.

In fact, I would say the arrogant pro-war lot is dwindling as many realize they have erred, that they were led astray and now seek answers.

Genuine answers for genuine questions.

And they do so politely. In the course of having my own blog, I have met hundreds of Americans who have warmed my heart because they retain the compassion and justice that I know still exists in America.


However, the US occupation of Iraq is evil. The destruction of Iraq's political infrastructure is evil. The consequences of the US occupation are evil.

Those who support the Bush doctrines in Iraq are evil.

Furthermore, Zarqawi is evil. Bin Laden is evil, and I personally believe most of the House of Saud are evil.

Oh, and just in case anyone asks, I am giving this government a chance to prove itself, contrary to my better judgment.

Let us see. I have a long list of things they need to do to prove successful.

1) Disband the militia, bring to trial those known to have committed crimes against Shia, Sunni etc.

2) Filter out the terrorist and Iranian elements of Badr; those who prove their loyalty to a unified Iraq should be entered into a vigorous training program in Jordan or somewhere.

3) Disband the Mehdi Army
4) Disband the peshmerga.
5) Charge the 35+ thousand Iraqis in detention or let them go.
6) Close all US-run prison camps, after all, Iraq is sovereign no?
7) Ask all security contractors to leave the country. If they do not, then by force if they have to.
8) Create an investigative committe to determine what happened in Falluja, Tal Afar, Ramadi and other cities nearly destroyed by US military offensives. Investigate the Samarra bombing (why has this been ignored - has anyone heard anything more on this?)
9) Disband the militia in Basra and exert more control as the city is falling apart and rocked by gang warfare
10) Concurent to the militia have been disbanded, and US forces have been disallowed from mounting offensives, disband the resistance
11) Create a massive media campaign stressing the unity of all Iraqis
12) Impose more stringent border patrols to disallow Iranian infiltrators.
13) Put on trial all those who are Iranian agents
14) Put on trial all those who are Jordanian, Saudi, Syrian, and Turkish agents
15) Make the hunting down of Zarqawi a national priority. National, not US.
16) Create neighborhood police committees comprised of neighborhood men, interior ministry officials and troops, Iraqi police, and with advisers from the Iraqi military
17) Put on trial all those who have attacked Shia, Sunni mosques and Churches.
18) Forbid the enforcement of Islamic garb - leave it as an option.
19) Ruthlessly investigate the murders of doctors, dentists, professors, artists, novelists, scientists ... a very long list
20) Take back full control of oil rights everywhere in Iraq, including Iraqi Kurdistan
21) Set up a National Truth and Reconciliation Council including members of the militia (who have disavowed violence), the resistance (who have done the same), Baathists (who have done the same), Kurds, Yazidis, Christians, Shia, Sunni etc. Model it along the lines of Algeria and South Africa's.
22) Issue a worldwide appeal for Iraqis to come back and rebuild their country.
23) Immediately cancel all foreign company contracts in Iraq. Put them up for review. Those that appear to be ripping the Iraqis off will be tossed out of the country. Let them impose economic sanctions again.
24) Call for a Foreign Policy charter which recognizes brotherly relations with our neighbors
25) Rewrite the constitution so that none of the minorities feel targeted
26) Return homes to Palestinians and other displaced Arabs - this was a huge shame on Iraqis in the first place.
27) Feverishly rebuild the Iraqi oil infrastructure.
28) After violence has ground to a halt, address the UN General Assembly asking for international aid
29) Increase employment opportunities as the country begins to rebuild.
30) Politely ask the US military to leave. For good.
31) Rehabilitate the nearly-dead health services sector.

Of course, I missed out on some points, but am no politician. This will suffice for today.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Rushlancia,

“I know you've said it before, and I'm sorry you have to repeat it, but I just don;t get it. I guess I can't.”
Well, come to Iraq, live here for some time and then you’ll know the difference, unless you don’t want to.

“Today, on the second day of your new government…”
Well, listen. I am not going to bother myself and say the same thing again. But I can say that violence will never stop at least for 10 years from now. HOWEVER, I am so hopeful that this government is going to do something especially if its goals are achieved even if takes time.

PS- it seems you are very bad in Math. How much did you get in school? I got A in Math!

“the works and actions of the MNF in general have better motives and/or results.”
Oh OK! Show me one good thing, if there is one! And don’t give me numbers or statistics. Show me something tangible. What the “MNF” are doing is like the kid who cried wolf.

“Where's the detailed investigation,, trial, and accountability of yesterday's bombing or today's? Will there be one?”
The new government should be asked about this because the US military expressed its failure in doing it. If the new government also fails in that [God forbids], it would be a huge problem and the whole country would explode and no one, literally no one will survive.

Treasure of Baghdad said...

Francisco,
“America' leaders have invaded Iraq not because Liberty/Freedom; Iraq has been invaded because of oil and satellite bussines.”


Thank you so much. I know how you feel.
To the Pro-war people: see!!!! People from other countries know exactly what is happening while you don’t. isn’t it the time to understand this situation?

Treasure of Baghdad said...

TAI,
Heeheeh.. well, you know! The current situation and the depression turned this vivid thing into sadness and sorrow and DETERMINATION to move forward at the same time.

I was full of life and joy despite the sanctions and the hard times we went through. Everyone loved me in school, from teachers to students in high school and college. I was called “el shatter el dayi7” heehee. I used to get the highest marks in school but wasn’t “moaqad” heehee…

Sigh… you reminded me with old days…

Jeffrey said...

BT,

Hey, when you were flying kites in the good ol' days under Papa Saddam's watchful -- but absolutely BENEVOLENT eyes -- did you ever notice a large, fat kid whose family name was MOOR?

Just wondering.

Gosh, the good ol' days when the Tikriti Gardeners could plant as many Shia seedlings as they wanted without outside intervention. Strange, those Shia seedlings never produced any flowers.

*

Jeffrey said...

TAI,

I have no problem with most of your recommendations for Iraq's future. From day one I've been hoping for a successful future for Iraq. When the Sunnis invited Zarkawi to come join them, however, I thought that was counterproductive.

And now, after so many Shia were blown up by extremist Sunnis and their foreign allies, the Sunnis are starting to realize that they are a distinct minority in Iraq and that if it's going to be a civil war they're going to be cleaned out completely by the Shia. Now it's the Sunnis, according to Nir Rosen, who don't want the MNF to leave. Oh, how the tables have turned.

Check out my link to Nir Rosen's article on the subject of the insurgency.

Oh, yeah, by the way, today is Iraqi Bloggers Central two-year anniversary!

Thanks in advance.

*

Rubin said...

TAI:

Which Nobel Iraqi "Resistance" Groups are you're referring to TAI, when you wax on and on and on about the "glorious Iraqi resistance" ?

is it..

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal Jihad

Islamic Army of Iraq

Jaish Ansar al-Sunna

Sunna Army of Iraq

Ansar al-Islam (AI)

Jana'at al-Tawhid wa'al Jihad

Muslim Brotherhood (of Iraq)

etc

etc.

etc.

If you can't even Name the group all your "noble resistance" talk is just more evidence that you live in a comic book fantasy world, and that world btw has nothing to do with the future of Iraq.

however, it is more evidence TAI that your spouting off about the imaginary again..

and in addition, it is more evidence that just telling another one of your pointless fairy tales again.

EdoRiver said...

When the Iraqi community finally gets a handle on the situation, when the bombings and senseless death rates go down to levels that aren't horrendous/

Alot of these bloggers will "go back home", disappear.
I wonder why?

Truth About Iraqis said...

Attacks on all foreign occupiers (US, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey) are legitimate. Attacks on Iranian agents are legitimate. Attacks against death squads are legitimate. Attacks on sectarian militia are legitimate.

Attacks against Arab terrorists are legitimate. Attacks against foreign military contractors are legitimate.

Attacks on Iraqi civilians are condemned. Attacks on Shia/Sunni mosques and churches are condemned.

Attacks against journalists are condemned. Attacks against hospitals and medical staff are condemned. Kidnappings in all forms are condemned.

Beheadings are condemned. Suicide bombings are condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Assyrian villages by Kurds is condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Sunnis by Shia is condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Shia by Sunnis is condemned.

From Asia Times:

"When the occupation forces entered Baghdad, they killed my brother in front of my eyes. He was wounded and bleeding but the occupation forces didn't allow me to save him. When I tried to save him they began shooting at me, and after a few minutes my brother died. After that I swore to fight them to the death."

This, in my opinion, is a resistance fighter, defending his family.

But who comprise the resistance? Who attacks foreign occupiers?

Ex -US soldier: 'If he didn't answer the way we liked, we would shoot his youngest kid in the head'

May 21, 2006
Jessie Macbeth is a former US Army Ranger, who served in Iraq for 16 months before being wounded and ultimately discharged. His squad did night raids, using the same techniques the Marines are accused of, 4 or 5 times a night for many months. Macbeth, who is now a member of "Iraq Veterans Against the War," was interviewed for the public access TV show "Indymedia Presents."

Excerpts:

"When we were doing the night raids in the houses, we would pull people out and have them all on their knees and zip-tied. We would ask the man of the house questions. If he didn't answer the way we liked, we would shoot his youngest kid in the head. We would keep going, this was our interrogation. He could be innocent. He could be just an average Joe trying to support his family. If he didn't give us a satisfactory answer, we'd start killing off his family until he told us something. If he didn't know anything, I guess he was SOL."

http://www.peacefilms.org/

and

"For not speaking out, I feel like I'm betraying my battle-buddies that died."

Could the father in such an incident want to attack US troops and the Iraqi interpreter that helped watch his son being shot in the head? I don't know.

When 911 happened, as much as it was a tragedy, the American public wanted revenge at all costs. It didn't matter who, but someone had to die. In fact tens of thousands had to die, and keep dying.

Revenge is part of human nature, as destructive as it is.

Is it unnatural that the relatives of those killed in Haditha want revenge after US soldiers shot in cold blood women and children.

Women and children.

Do you think a picture like this (US air strike on falluja to kill Zarqawi - notice how young Zarqawi is) could fuel someone to join the resistance?

http://images.abolkhaseb.net/air-strike/pages/airstrike_falluja-2-10-2004_jpg.htm

Remember the attack on the wedding in western Iraq which the US military has still not fully investigated?

Do you suppose this picture made the parent(s) seek revenge?

http://www.albasrah.net/images/wedding/images/wedding-Makr%20al-Deeb190504_jpg.jpg

How about all the Iraqis killed in their cars because of trigger-happy US soldiers who may or may not have come under attack?

Look at this picture in this article:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-01/06/content_406393.htm

Maybe the kid in this picture grows up to pick up an RPG? Maybe?

Saying it is the fault of the Iraqi civilians is tantamount to spitting on the blood of innocents.

Calling it collateral damage is an insulting wordplay that is the known domain of cowards.

Saying war is ugly and that's that is escapism from the reality and responsibility that comes with sending your sons and daughters to wage a war that has been vilified internationally.

Iraqi blood is not cheaper than American blood or Chinese blood or Nicaraguan blood.

If you cry for the 3000 who died on 911 then surely you have the same humanity and compassion to cry for those who have been killed in Iraq.

Or does your patriotism not extend to human compassion beyond the physical borders?

Murdered innocents across the world don't matter right, but when it hits home then it is a matter of some urgence?

Everytime I see a picture of a coffin of a US soldier brought home, I cringe in sorrow.

Not for the soldier, but for the mother and father who will have to bury her son/daughter. And for the children orphaned.

But at the same time, I realize that for every one US soldier killed in Iraq, at least 20 Iraqis have been killed. If not more.

You think this is a game, that one blogger can best another. But these are our lives. And ultimately yours.

Grow up. All of humanity is being defeated every day in Iraq and elsewhere.

But I cannot and will not condemn those who defend their country, their homes, their families, their neighborhoods, their religion.

The groups listed and their names do not matter to me. If they attack foreign occupiers, military contractors, and proxy agents, fine.

If they attack Iraqi civilians, innocents and/or engage in kidnapping then I oppose them.

If the US were attacked today for no reason, if the US were attacked in a pre-emptive war for some cockamamie story, I would stand with every American who defends his family and his home, his country.

It is interesting you choose the word noble, because I condemn attacks on Israeli civilians as readily and as vehemently as I condemn attacks on Palestinian civilians.

Unfortunately, we, the Iraqi bloggers, and I know from private correspondence that I speak for them here, cannot expect the same of you.

A shame.

To recap:

Attacks on all foreign occupiers (US, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey) are legitimate. Attacks on Iranian agents are legitimate. Attacks against death squads are legitimate. Attacks on sectarian militia are legitimate.

Attacks against Arab terrorists are legitimate. Attacks against foreign military contractors are legitimate.

Attacks on Iraqi civilians are condemned. Attacks on Shia/Sunni mosques and churches are condemned.

Attacks against journalists are condemned. Attacks against hospitals and medical staff are condemned. Kidnappings in all forms are condemned.

Beheadings are condemned. Suicide bombings are condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Assyrian villages by Kurds is condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Sunnis by Shia is condemned. Ethnic cleansing of Shia by Sunnis is condemned.

EdoRiver said...

I wish to mention another Iraqi blog site that I will visit.
Hanoudi Letter

Foo Shea said...

Rhuslancia - "It's only 2 days old!"

Same baby, different nappies. I don't care how old it is. I don't see any change and something stinks.

Iraq's administration has been through so many metaphorical rebirths you'd think it might be Brahman.

BT - "Moo" ? Crikey, you can tell this blog is frequented mainly by sensitive new age men catering to their Hindu audience.

Rubin - Unfortunately you seem to have someone mixed up with someone else again. The story teller is not with us today. She is washing out her brushes. TAI does not do fairytales, at least not very well. He does "citizen journalism" (not to be confused with anything the reality based community produce).

Rubin said...

TAI,

Lengthy misdirects do not qualify as an answer TAI.

Simple question..*again*

Which REAL Iraqi "resistance" organization are you referring to TAI?

You know, the ones that are doing the "good killing" in Iraq as you put it?

Here's an idea, If you can't remember the answer look back over your previous comments and refresh your memory for the answer or contact "we the Iraqi bloggers" by E-mail for some suggestions.

*****************

TAI: Everytime I see a picture of a coffin of a US soldier brought home, I cringe in sorrow.

Big whopper alert!

******************************

340 + separate Baghdad car bombings. Each one with pics and article. The noble handiwork of the resistance.

*************************

Endoriver,

clue just for you...

En boca cerrada, no entran moscas.

****************************
Foo,

Mooooo! LOL! >::

RhusLancia said...

TAI,

Good Lord! That's a lot of attacking! But you left out the Iraqi police and Iraqi army. you left them out twice, actually. Legitmate or condemned? How about assassinations of officials & ministers in the gov't? Intimidating same? Legitimate or condemned? And how can someone know that an Iraqi to be killed is an Iranian agent, death squad member, or sectarian militiaman without a trial? Not a mock trial, a real one. Isn't charging and trying Iraqis in custody in the list you provided above (which I also mostly agree with, by the way)? Do you excuse le Resistance of this requirement but hold the MNF and gov't to it?

You also said "sending your sons and daughters to wage a war that has been vilified internationally." But maybe you forgot that the UNSC authorized the presence of the MNF in Iraq? Is there any other international body that's in a better position to officially condemn the US presence? But they didn't...


BT,

First, what's wrong with my math? Isn't three dead police out of twelve killed total = 25%? You know, one-fourth?

Second, I would love to visit your country some day. Not now though, thanks. With a wife and two kids at home I would hate to be mistaken for any of the groups that it's okey-dokey to kill. You know what? I think I will just lump all of the killings together as unjustifiable and unneccessary. OK? Otherwise, you're right, you'll be in a ten year cycle of killings, reprisal killings, revenge killings, honor killings, attempted coup killings, and on and on and on.

“the works and actions of the MNF in general have better motives and/or results.”
Oh OK! Show me one good thing, if there is one! And don’t give me numbers or statistics. Show me something tangible."


Just one thing tangible? Well, the US did remove your somewhat unpopular former leader. Most people, I think including yourself and TAI, think that's a good thing. There were several choices of how to proceed from there, and each alternative would draw the same volume of criticism three years later I'm sure, just with different angles & spin.


BT & TAI,

You both say you are willing to give the new gov't a chance, and hope for success. That's great - count me in! But what happens if the new Iraqi Parliament convenes and authorizes the MNF presence, even if only for a time? Would you drop your support for le Resistance, or for the government?

EdoRiver said...

Rubin,
thanks, the meaning and the link are useful ;-)

I used to take a smug self-congradulations that I did not get involved in political commenting (again ;-) and recently you can see I am getting closer to the
edge...Really I want to transform that "old self" part of me. It only brought me frustration in the US, and even a kind of academic punishment for my irresponsibility. But here again, I am.

What I really wanted to say in this blog.
Look, there is a bright side of moving to another country. I/you can always visit the home country, you keep your passport. Children are so wonderfully flexible if they have the support structure. They might become double citizens, even if they are only truly comfortable in one country, they get a great dose educational dose of another culture.
They are also stronger and more mature if they have had to endure alot to get to the other place.

If you are going alone, you can always find a love and friends in any country. TRUST ME, there are good people everywhere.

Foo Shea said...

EdoRiver - "I used to take a smug self-congradulations that I did not get involved in political commenting".

And I am Martha Stewart.

I have one word for you "EdoRiver" - bull. (As a-fixed to "shit". It sticks, EdoRiver, and I wouldn't be too smug about things if I were you. The tables could turn at any time.)

Meanwhile, some of the people who really don't get involved in political commenting (not the smug ones) are people who do so for other reasons which we can all appreciate. Probably. Like say if they are channeling their energies artistically or are snubbing bigots like Jeffrey and TAI-Bruno or have taken a true pacifists vow of silence on certain subjects. Other people just ignore these discussions because, well, because it is boring and reality is calling. And that is probably why I am off now.

Foo Shea said...

But before I go, Niki is currently holding the liars accountable (not too smugly, I hope). Bless her soul, maybe one day she will demand accountability from TAI too.

Bruno said...

On Iraqi sovereignty --

To somehow imagine that this band of fools that is called a government is in any way to be considered ‘legitimately elected’ or sovereign is simply laughable. No, in fact it is pathetic, because it shows how far removed from reality these people are. Why, if one looks at the so-called ‘elections’, not only were many parties running on assumed names (vote for Mickey Mouse or Father Christmas, anyone?) but they also had no defined agenda, no debate of the issues. Like TAI said, it is “here’s a list of people, now choose.”

Secondly, the “elections” were rife with fraud. I have read first hand accounts from the ground that the “Sunni” cheated horribly. The “Shia” cheated horribly. The “Kurds” cheated horribly. With ballot stuffing like this, it could be said that it was the victory of the biggest cheaters. This is no democracy. As for “endorsement” of the elections, this is also a farce. Who were the observers? Why, in many cases the people “observing” the process were participating in the rigging. Uh, yeah, that’s a legitimate outcome.

But I DO like the hypocrisy of people like CMAR2 who scrupulously adhere to what could be a new dictum of US foreign policy: “obey the law when it suits you, ignore it when it does not. And where possible, make the laws to suit you.” Bremer’s 100 orders, anybody?

The extent of Iraqi sovereignty can be seen with the results of the Jafaari incident. Supposedly the leader of the party which won the (so-called) elections, he was elected again on an internal vote of that party. But the US doesn’t like him, so whiz, out he goes. Yeah, looks like the idea of “sovereignty” is an optional extra when US foreign policy is involved.

And CMAR2, funny that you should mention Germany in terms of de-Nazification. You are aware, I presume, that the US ‘de-nazification’ consisted of mainly exporting the more clever Nazis to the USA? And that the US in fact reinstated those Nazis to power who were willing to work with it? I admit a sense of déjà vu when the first thing the US did in Iraq was to round up all the Ba’athists who were willing to work with the US and MADE THEM THE CORE OF THE INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS. And I’m not talking about schoolteachers here. That’s right, Hussein’s legbreakers, hard at work for the good ol’ USA.

And CMAR2, funny that you should mention Europe in the context of sovereignty. You are aware of the paramilitary “stay behind armies” which on more than one occasion have been activated in order to violently interfere in the political process of sovereign countries, Italy being a prime example? These “stay behind armies” report ultimately to the US and the CIA.

Bruno said...

Finally, people, please don’t feed the troll. Overindulgence in attention will ultimately harm both her mental health and ours.

Foo Shea said...

Everybody please ignore the very long and boring posts Bruno has been taping up all over the place. He seems to think they are making some kind of a difference, even though only he reads them (so he can reply to himself and attend his own rallies).

I notice ever since somebody pointed put your timestamp trail Bruno, that you have been somewhat absent in your current form.

It must be hard posting as An Italian and trying not to slander female contributors too much, so as not to give away your other personas by having a personal vendetta and being a misogynist. It sure must be tough.

misneach said...

You should be proud BT, your writing certainly draws alot of readers...

Anonymous said...

TAI-Jessie Macbeth is a former US Army Ranger.......

Like 90% of what you spew, and I'm being very generous with the other 10%, this is complete and utter bullshit. The video is no longer at the site you posted (site has been removed for obvious reasons to anyone with a shred of credibility), but someone has posted it on youtube. The guy is a complete con artist making him a perfect tool for people like you. You'd think that the producer of the film would have made some efort to see if the guy was even a Ranger, but apparently not. His photo in uniform behind him in the video has several glaring mistakes--he is a phony. But he fits right in to your agenda.

Comment below written by: Blackfive
Okay people, let me explain, no not enough time, let me sum up:

Beret is correct color.
Flash is incorrect.
No unit insignia.
Sleeves rolled up Marine style.
Horrendous uniform for photo.
Incorrect wearing of beret.
Calling a fellow Ranger a "Battle Buddy" will get your ass kicked. Seriously.
Deployment time and dates of OIF don't match.
Picking up Rangers in Korea?
Folks are mentioning his tabs are out of order. I can't tell from the photo.

Sapper Mike correctly points out that squared away types, especially those who throw themselves out of aircraft moving at high rates of speed, do not wear pin on rank (or badges or whatever for that matter).

Finally, the distinct lack of Airborne Wings...

Enough about this ass clown. He's a POS. Probably former Army. AKO pages don't really apply to vets. His profile at military.com was more than likely written by himself...he claims an SF tab as well. Completely laughable...

Anonymous said...

TAI-Jessie Macbeth is a former US Army Ranger.......

Like 90% of what you spew, and I'm being very generous with the other 10%, this is complete and utter bullshit. The video is no longer at the site you posted (site has been removed for obvious reasons to anyone with a shred of credibility), but someone has posted it on youtube. The guy is a complete con artist making him a perfect tool for people like you. You'd think that the producer of the film would have made some efort to see if the guy was even a Ranger, but apparently not. His photo in uniform behind him in the video has several glaring mistakes--he is a phony. But he fits right in to your agenda.

Comment below written by: Blackfive
Okay people, let me explain, no not enough time, let me sum up:

Beret is correct color.
Flash is incorrect.
No unit insignia.
Sleeves rolled up Marine style.
Horrendous uniform for photo.
Incorrect wearing of beret.
Calling a fellow Ranger a "Battle Buddy" will get your ass kicked. Seriously.
Deployment time and dates of OIF don't match.
Picking up Rangers in Korea?
Folks are mentioning his tabs are out of order. I can't tell from the photo.

Sapper Mike correctly points out that squared away types, especially those who throw themselves out of aircraft moving at high rates of speed, do not wear pin on rank (or badges or whatever for that matter).

Finally, the distinct lack of Airborne Wings...

Enough about this ass clown. He's a POS. Probably former Army. AKO pages don't really apply to vets. His profile at military.com was more than likely written by himself...he claims an SF tab as well. Completely laughable...

sitmwy said...

I have to comment on that Jessie MacBeth you tube. That is one of the funniest hoaxes I've seen. Coming from a soldier, that is completly made up. Please believe me. If i thought that to be even the slightest true, I would be running that up my chain to have those actions looked into. But Jessie MacBeth was never a Ranger, and possibly never even in the military from the looks of it.

Anonymous said...

foo shea


Moouche let's milk foo shea for all she's worth

Even though we rather like chicken or even beef stew

We'd wish you'd quit hiding and come out from the loo

life is a milk chair and waiting for you

So kick up your hooves foo shea and let out a "moo"!


/fabulous poetry

Anonymous True said...

Let's Tell Anonymous (12:11)

Let's tell anonymous where to go
He can't write, not exactly a Poe
A coward a liar a hypocrit a cheat
Can't post as "Bruno"
And can't find his teat

Talks about udders
An Oedipull hangup
Clubs with his "brudders"
In case "SHE" busts his gang-up
Go home to mother "brother"
And cook your own noodles.

/Affirmation Anonymous 12:11 Sux

Rubin said...

(cough) TAI & Brunhilda
*

Tal Afar Mayor Najim Al Jibouri Thanks 3rd Armored Cavalry for saving his city from certain ruin.

By David Montero, Rocky Mountain News
May 20, 2006
COLORADO SPRINGS - An Iraqi mayor stood before troops lined up on the lawn at Fort Carson on Friday morning and said only two words in English.
But those two words brought the crowd to its feet.

"Thank you."

It was a telling gesture from Tal Afar Mayor Najim Al Jibouri, who spoke for about 20 minutes in his native tongue praising the 3rd Armored Cavalry for saving his city from certain ruin.

It was his first trip to the United States, arriving via Washington, D.C., then coming to Colorado Springs with his wife and son.

The mayor was invited as a part of a welcoming ceremony at Fort Carson for those who had just finished another tour in Iraq.

Al Jibouri, dressed in a black suit with a lavender tie, said he was glad to be back among them.

"Are you truly my friends?" he asked through a translator. "Yes. I walk a happier man because you are my friends. You are the world to me. I smell the sweet perfume that emanates from your flower of your strength, honor and greatness in every corner of Tal Afar. The nightmares of terror fled when the lion of your bravery entered our city."

Last year, the 3rd ACR was credited with securing the city of Tal Afar and largely ridding it of insurgents. The mayor singled out Col. H.R. McMaster, whom he called "a wise leader."

The mayor patted his hand on his heart and made the peace sign as a crowd of soldiers and their families gave him a standing ovation.....more

Truth About Iraqis said...

Are you familiar with the Arabic word "Touz"? Look it up.

It describes perfectly what I have to say about what you pasted.

Truth About Iraqis said...

EVIDENCE to support controversial claims that napalm has been used by US forces in Iraq has been brought to Australia by an Iraqi doctor.

Dr Salam Ismael, of the Baghdad-based group Doctors for Iraq, said the evidence pointed to the use of napalm on civilians during the second siege of Fallujah in November 2004.

It is contained in film and photographs that doctors took of bodies they collected when they were finally allowed to enter the city after being barred for three days of the military operation.

"We said that napalm had been used, because napalm is a bomb which is a fuel bomb that burns only on the exposed part of the body, so that the clothes will not be affected," Dr Ismael said from Perth at the start of a speaking tour.

Doctors For Iraq, an independent group founded in 2003, is calling for an international investigation that would allow the bodies to be exhumed for autopsies "because we want to know the truth of what happened".

Dr Ismael said the napalm was a modification from the 1990s of the wind-driven napalm chemical bombs used by the US in Vietnam in the 1960s.

The US Government admits using white phosphorus in Iraq but denies using napalm.

Dr Ismael said the pattern of burns on bodies collected in Fallujah suggested otherwise.

Asked to respond to the napalm allegations, a Pentagon spokesman said only that the US did not target civilians. [TOUZ ALERT] It was up to the Iraqi Government to decide if international investigators should be allowed into Fallujah.

Dr Ismael will speak at a Unity for Peace public meeting at RMIT on Thursday night and at Melbourne University on Friday.

******

Acute malnutrition among young children in Iraq has nearly doubled since the United States led an invasion of the country 20 months ago, according to surveys by the United Nations, aid agencies and the interim Iraqi government.

After the rate of acute malnutrition among children younger than 5 steadily declined to 4 percent two years ago, it shot up to 7.7 percent this year, according to a study conducted by Iraq's Health Ministry in cooperation with Norway's Institute for Applied International Studies and the U.N. Development Program. The new figure translates to roughly 400,000 Iraqi children suffering from "wasting," a condition characterized by chronic diarrhea and dangerous deficiencies of protein.

Fuck Iraqi children, bunch of Zarqawis in training, right?

It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: “[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.”

Anonymous said...

"Truth about Iraqis"

Its Monday May 22 a new government was announced
after much negotiation among
the many factions of Iraqi society
OH wait whats this

"
In the most severe incident, two car bombs exploded simultaneously at a busy market in a predominantly Shiite district of eastern Baghdad, killing 24 people, army Lt. Ahmad Jasim Hassan said. A police brigadier general, however, said 10 people had died in the attack.

"
But the important thing is to confuse Napalm with the white
phosphrous flares from more then a year ago ... Yes bring that point up while the car bombs go off in Baghdad today with out a US soldier in sight. .....

Back your new Government and stop
looking into every incident and
twisting evidence and presenting
all these quotations from people
you can influence the future ...
the past is done

Foo Shea said...

Save it TAI. Anyone who's been reading this blog will have already read these things (Ishmael, Napalm, Touz - yours included) elsewhere. You're wasting space and the thread's degenerating. I don't think much sense is going to come of it from now on. Probably just a lot more trolling and copy-pasting.

You still owe an apology before anything you write can be taken seriously to any degree at all (although whether your sermons can do anything but turn the vast majority of sane people off you altogether is debatable). Fess up, cut the crap. Stop making a Saddam of yourself. "Winning" your points by lying cheating and fabricating half your own opposition puts you right in the potty-bin with the rot over at CMARII's and Jeffrey's forged pond of insolubles. With which you seem to have forged an unfortunate alliance (ie the contrived production you and CMARII collaborated on somewhat prior to comment 99).

All nonsense aside, you owe several apologies. At this point, one will suffice. You have to start somewhere!

Truth About Iraqis said...

The past is done? Tell that to the Jewish people who every year have a new monument set up to mark the victims of the tragedy that we know as the Holocaust.

The past is done? Tell the Russins to quit marking the liberation of Stalingrad in 1943.

The past is done? Why is September 11th marked every year? Why is a monument being built? Why is there a Vietnam War memorial?

Why was Tom Hanks seeking to build a World War II memorial? Is it to forget the past?

No, sorry. I, and the other Iraqi bloggers here REFUSE to forget how we got in this place. If they taught history in US schools and taught the follies of the Vietnam War, Iraq would have never been invaded because the people would know how information and news can be twisted to fit an imperialist, warmongering agenda.

You want Iraqis to forget the past three years because it is the ETERNAL blight on western civilization.

Yes. Perhaps the words sting but it is true. An illegal and inhumane war to kick off the 21st century.

9-11? Sure, it was a crime against humanity and thousands of innocent people were killed and thousands more affected forever.

In Iraq, 1.7 million Iraqis died because of the sanctions. Should we forget them?

Or the more the tens of thousand who have died in Iraq for the WMD fraud.

Keep your imperialist racist tone to yourself. When you choose to forget the aforementioned, we will too.

I support a government that is for the people, by the people, of the people. This government is none of those.

You just want the Iraq problem to go away because your conscience gnaws at you again and again and again.

Sorry, its not going away. And if anything, am here to keep piercing your bubble with the hard realities.

Why don't you look at what other bloggers have said of the government?

In any case, I will not pass final judgment on this government until I see what it does.

I listed my points earlier. Go read them.

Quick recap: I didnt support the repressive Baathists (although Baathism in essence is a much better alternative to Islamism) and am not about to support a government that makes the Baathists look like girl scouts.

This government must avoid sowing sectarianism, and reject influenced Iran.

It has a lot to prove. Lets see how the death squads are reigned in first.

Jeffrey said...

TAI,

C'mon, you're not even IRAQI.

You're a mongrel Austrian-Anschluss NAZI.

Jeezus.

I dunno. Maybe your balls are Mislawi. Who knows.

Nothing funnier than a Rah-rah Mislawi Kraut.

Hey, stop pinching your wienerschnitzel in public!

*

Truth About Iraqis said...

I don't care if a racist like you thinks I am not Iraqi.

My people know I am Iraqi.

But you have absolutely no argument left. You can't stomach that the other Iraq bloggers and I say the same thing.

You make fun of BT, 24 and Fayrouz and anyone else who shames you with the truth.

You never had an argument. So you talk like this, shaming your country, shaming your people, shaming yourself.

The word among Iraqi bloggers is you are taking medication for anger management. Is that true?

Or is it Tourette's?

Keep making fun and cussing. It proves my point every time.

Truth About Iraqis said...

This is why they want us to forget the past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7przeLpl2s&search=iraq

"The more Americans find out about what is happening in Iraq, the less they want to know and the less the media wants to tell them."

Don't let people whitewash this atrocity.

Murtha on the Bush administration: "They're trying to sanitize this war".

Rubin said...

Who knew that Tongue TAIed was a shrewd fall back position all along.

Yep fooled us again TAI with that invisible answer!

TAI's genius: "maybe if I just pretend to be ignorant no one will even notice.

Truth About Iraqis said...

Grow up, Rubin. You are learning from others how to appear silly and immature.

Keep it up.

Foo Shea said...

"The past is done? Tell that to the Jewish people who every year have a new monument set up to mark the victims of the tragedy that we know as the Holocaust." - TAI

Expecting support from "The Jews" to back up your ranting at this point is an extraordinarily weak manoeuvre considering you are all gong-ho about the PLO (refer previous comments, yours, on this page).

If the past is not so done, why cannot you apologise for your constant shit-stirring. There is no "nice" word for it TAI, no "nice" word to explain your past actions. There is no "word" among the "Iraqi Bloggers", only sectarian rifts that you drum up and try to play. There is next to no racism among other commenters here, Jeffrey may be a pain but he is not especially racist. In fact, you are probably more racist then he is and that's not greatly helpful to your cause. It makes you look like a hypocrit. Which you are.

The way you try to draw others into your personality clashes is pitiful. How many times have you mentioned "Iraqi Bloggers" who apparently support you TAI, on this thread alone. You keep listing your “supporters”, as though you cannot speak on your own. A brave man, I would say. Where are they all TAI. These Iraqis. In your pocket? With the Jews whose monuments you now care about. A game? Are these Jews and Iraqi Bloggers played TAI, like cards. CMARII deals an ITM and you tuck a gas chamber up your sleeve?

No wonder there are those among us who will have none of it.

It is time for you to apologise TAI. Leave Jeffrey out of this. Bringing him over here to obscure the justice you know needs settling with an apology that can only come from you, is making you look weak. An extraordinarily weak bully.

When you can reflect upon the dirt you threw at Jeffrey in his less offensive form (face it, he became a horror after your work) and at others (including Iraqis) while posting by proxy and under other names, to get them to react, when you can reflect upon these things that you know are wrong, and when you can fess up to your own many and multi-faceted failings, then perhaps you can consider yourself qualified to talk about holocausts.

As it stands, you are on very shaky ground TAI. And you know it.

Now, would you like to tell everybody about how Fayrouz ran around pretending to be an innocent little puppy all wounded by the hurtful "Non De Plumes" that were posting horrid things? Or shall I. Shall I tell them about the tizzy-fits you had with her under other names and how you lost the plot and how you both set about emailing "so and so said this and so and so says that" behind everybody’s backs? Or shall I help you make a clean sweep of things by doing it for you. Remember TAI, I have a lot less to lose in that I have not been hiding nearly so "cleverly" as you have and the revelation that Foo Shea is... would hardly be a shocker to anyone.

What is at Stake TAI. Well, I guess the war is TAI. Maybe if you popped down off your pulpit for a moment you might remember that the war is about more then your ego. I hope you can do this TAI, because your pontificating is doing little to change things. I mean, who actually reads your posts and who scrolls through?

I might add, and I guess I will, that trying to make yourself look big against a fool like Jeffrey (or a construct like Rubin) is making you look very small indeed. Taking on Jeffrey Schuster is not exactly taking on Halliburton.

Apologise TAI. Apologise and set an example. Before Howard beats you to it (a snail race, in my opinion).

misneach said...

I'm sorry, did someone say that it's "Iraqi Bloggers" stirring up sectarian rifts? That's the dumbest comment I've heard in a while.

I think it's funny that someone (obviously american, or americanophile) would say something like "the past is done."
Perhaps that's why the 1917 invasion of Russia by U.S. troops (150,000 strong) isn't covered in American History: "The past is done."
Perhaps that's why America's consistant use of chemical weapons (who here has ever seen the propaganda advertisements for "agent orange" from Vietnam?) in major conflicts isn't discussed: "The past is done."
Perhaps that's why America's consistant support for Saddam throughout the time period of his worst atrocities (the "gassing of the kurds" and other crimes against humanity he's "on trial" for now) is seldom mentioned anymore: "The past is done."
Perhaps that's why the WMD claim that was the pretext for the invasion of Iraq in the first place is seldom mentioned anymore (in the mainstream media): "The past is done."

What worries me about the whole "the past is done" concept is that, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we make them all over again. Are we to forget the lessons that history has taught us in favor of a line of reasoning such as "the past is done" ?

EdoRiver said...

A popular family program, unique to Japan. It comes on at 6:30 PM before the usual national news at 7PM.

They have some traditional stuff with children and games in the studio, Then they go off site to visit a home. The homes are chosen from viewers who write in and say they want their home used as an off-site stage for the program. The family has children who are fans of the program.
They use the home for various activities and pay about $9,000 USD above any problems they cause.
Today's program them was "Hide and Seek". The three children of this family must hide somewhere in their house, and the TV program talents come dressed in costume, one is a dragon, one is samurai warrior, one is king and they must search for the children within 30 minutes. If they can't find all 3 children in 30 the family wins about $9,000 USD. The children are assisted by the program staff and miniature cameras are installed throughout the house. these 3 characters came and started tearing apart the house!!! looking for the children! It was really a riot! As I said the TV studio will repace anything damaged with new stuff. their costumes get in the way too! the parents were in the home studio watching by closed circuit TV what was happening. Of course anything very valuable and fragile was either taped down or removed to a safe location. One guy though was lifting up the carpet to looke for trick doors in the floor!!!! I almost laughed myself sick!
regards from Japan.
PS you can do this too once things settle down.

Foo Shea said...

Misneach, you must be reading things into what other commenters have written. Nobody said Iraqis were stirring up sectarian division - though if you said they didn't TAI would be sure to pop his head up with "Ra Ra Ra who says Iraqis aren't clever enough to stir up sectarian division, Ra Ra Ra Arabs are the masters of sectarian divison Ra Ra Ra Allah is The Greatest Liar In Heaven and how dare you question it Ra Ra Ra".

If you are trying to have a talk about the past with me (who knows, you could be directing it at Rubin or Jeffrey but I'd say your chances of a decent discussion there are fairly slim) then perhaps take a look at your own past first. To be awfully Schusteresque in offering some advice, give some personal examples to personalise your contribution (rather then borrow other peoples' as TAI has done. I guess he tried to appropriate the Jewish holocaust for his own ends as he couldn't use the Palestinians whose past while tragic is not nearly so horrific as one that includes near extermination in Nazi death camps. At the moment liberal minded people could probably compare Jewish ghettos to Palestinian refugee camps but that's about as far it goes and even the PLO are reluctant to do this sort of a compare as it raises the spectre "why didn't the Saudis help out the poor homeless Palestinians instead of leaving them to the devices of the wicked Jewish communists all on their own as a sort of buffer zone" followed by the other comparison in which Zionism is the liberation movement of the Jewish people and the Knesset is it’s organisation. You could call it the ZLO.).

Anyway, what I mean is, Misneach, I certainly agree that the past needs to be addressed. And I do believe it came up in this OPEN forum earlier, or someplace like it. But first, a few apologies need to made. An apology is always the beginning of the ending of things that ought to be laid to rest and looked back on when the complainant chooses too, rather then when opportunists choose too appropriate the complainants pains with no REAL sense of empathy. It's a sort of indication or a signal that usually precedes some sort of process which you might compare to justice. Although true justice can never be, as there are some things that can never be forgiven. And that should never happen again. Never again. Ever. Like wars and such.

I expect this will be quite a hard thing for Bush to do, seeing as he’s in over his head, but I’m sure if a few bloggers set a good example the real-life CMARIIs of the world might feel they have something to match (there are, I notice, a number of Military defectors although unfortunately the desertation of peace rallies after Feb 2003 matches them).

I expect it must take quite a bit of COURAGE to do this though. I wonder if TAI can. I wonder if can apologise for his sectarian stirrings. Perhaps if he did ITM might follow. You never can tell. Or even Zeyad. He did after all teach the Americans all about it on his blog such a long time ago now, that big long effort of his all about explaining Islam in it’s multiple many coloured way which got so awfully misinterpreted and then used against his own district at every given opportunity.

Don’t you think.

misneach said...

Just a thought on the possible catalyst for the emergence of this horrendous sectarian violence in Iraq; a quote from a well known blog in 2003:

"Let's Play Musical Chairs...
The nine-member rotating presidency is a failure at first sight. It’s also a failure at second, third, fourth… and ninth sight. The members of the rotating presidency, composed of 4 Shi’a Muslims, 2 Sunni Muslims and 2 Kurds, were selected on a basis of ethnicity and religion.

It is a way of further dividing the Iraqi population. It is adding confusion to chaos and disorder. Just the concept of an ethnically and religiously selected council to run the country is repulsive. Are people supposed to take sides according to their ethnicity or religion?"
-Written by RIVERBEND on Baghdad Burning, Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Bruno said...

[Anonymous] “In the most severe incident, two car bombs exploded simultaneously at a busy market in a predominantly Shiite district of eastern Baghdad, killing 24 people, army Lt. Ahmad Jasim Hassan said. A police brigadier general, however, said 10 people had died in the attack.”

I see. A bomb went off and WHO planted it? The resistance? If so, which group? Zarqawi? The Americans? Zarqawi and the Americans together? Arab fundamentalists? Iranian agents? That event tells us nothing, beyond the fact that the puppet regime has absolutely no control of the security situation. Acts should be judged as resistance or no on the basis of who they target.




TAI – “ You never had an argument. So you talk like this, shaming your country, shaming your people, shaming yourself. The word among Iraqi bloggers is you are taking medication for anger management. Is that true?”

Ah, the honeyed words of truth. That’s right, ol’ Jeffrey never did have an argument. But he is good at random mockery. Makes him think he is a man. Makes him imagine his weiner is a bratwurst. Actually, he should be out there recruiting for bin Laden, he does it so well.



Rubin –

On Tal Afar, I refer you to the analysis of Dr Juan Cole:

Juan Cole:

“ The NYT reports Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who teaches at West Point, as estimating that the US military should have a big presence in Iraq for 5 to 7 years, while partnering with and building up the Iraqi military. So in 5 years the Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish battalions will like each other more than they do now? Will be more willing to fight against armed groups from their own ethnicities?

My problem with that is that they seem to think that the Tal Afar operation was a success, whereas it is a political disaster, and if they are planning another 5 to 7 years of that sort of thing, then we are doomed. At Tal Afar they used Kurdish and Shiite troops to assault Sunni Turkmen, emptied the city on the grounds that it was full of foreign fighters, killed people and made them refugees, and then only took 50 foreign fighters captive. The Sunni Turkmen, not to mention the Turks in Ankara, will never forgive us. And the press reports show substantial disappointment in the city even among Shiites with the results. The Tal Afar operation is considered a "take and hold" or "oil spot" strategy, as opposed to search and destroy. But you can't just empty out one Sunni city after another, bring in troops of other ethnicities to level neighborhoods, force people into tent cities in the desert or into relatives' homes, and call that a counter-insurgency strategy. Every year the US military has been in the Sunni Arab heartland they have alienated more and more Iraqis.” //end excerpt.

In other words, the US Army assisted in ethnically cleansing Tal Afar, and parades the praise of the remainder of the population as some sort of vindication of its methods. It’s like the Nazis praising Hitler for killing Jews. It is entirely expected. I’d like to know who this Jabouri is, who he is affiliated with and who elected him. For all we know, he could be a paid stooge along the lines of Chalabi or a creation of the Lincoln Group.




On the troll –

Please DON’T feed the troll. Some trolls like to be milked, and stroking the teats of this troll is just going to spray sour milk all over your face. Believe me, somebody with a psychological trauma is nothing if not tenacious. Ignore the poor thing.

Rubin said...

...time is short this AM on the left coast. so without further ado we'll just have to do with the following.. more later this afternoon.

BS Brunhilda! and the Jaun Cole rented by Arab oil money horse you rode in on. And BS on the Tal Afar analyst you spout.

for starters and first example lets start with two lefty sources:

Michael Ware is not exactly an American Gov spokesman and PBS Frontline could charitably be described left of center.

They put together a fair picture of what life was like in Tal Afar before American and Iraq Gov. Forces cleaned up the terrorist scum there.

"Al Qaeda planted its flag in Tal Afar and said 'This is ours,'" says Michael Ware, Baghdad bureau
chief for Time Magazine.
_________________


When the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment arrived in the region in summer 2005, Tal Afar was a support base that insurgents used to organize, train and equip terrorist cells, the unit's commander, Army Col. H.R. McMaster, said in a live news conference from Tikrit. Insurgents were drawn to the area because of its access to external support through Syria and its tendency toward sectarian conflict, he said.

Insurgents terrorized the people of Tal Afar, making them afraid to cooperate with coalition or Iraqi security forces, McMaster said. An average of five civilians were killed each day, and the insurgents spread anti-coalition propaganda, he said.

"This enemy was particularly brutal, and life was horrible in the city. They would leave headless bodies in the street. They kidnapped a young child on one occasion, killed the child, put a booby trap inside of his body and waited for the father to come claim the body to kill the parent."

Watch: PBS Frontline Tal Afar

____________________________

misneach with the over-reach: think it's funny that someone (obviously american, or americanophile) would say something like "the past is done."
Perhaps that's why the 1917 invasion of Russia by U.S. troops (150,000 strong) isn't covered in American History: "The past is done."


that "invasion" as you call it was high school stuff dear, taught in the public high school system with a wee bit more context as to the reasons and voluntary exit for instance.

___________________

Which REAL Iraqi "resistance" organization are you referring to TAI?

You know, the ones that are doing the "good killing" in Iraq as you put it?

Here's an idea, If you can't remember the answer look back over your previous comments and refresh your memory for the answer or contact "we the Iraqi bloggers" by E-mail for some suggestions.

____________________________

Foo I have but one thing to say to you and that is

Moooooo! >::

Foo Shea said...

To the forlorn braying steers "Rubin" and TAI-Bruno - and that is why you are disgusting bastards that deserve to be castrated.

No wonder you both are too ashamed to apologise. One thing on your minds isn't there - and only one thing.

Go ahead, be a Saddam TAI-Bruno. You're making a great job of turning everybody totally off your crap. Show everyone your true colours.

What a disgusting sexist little primate. I guess you can't stand that you are wrong and belong in the same pen with Saddam. Frankly Bruno, you are precisely what Iraq does not need - another Uday. A troll with his brain in pants - no prizes for guessing how small it is.

Your constant references to female body parts you don't own and take to be the parts of a commenter whose political ideas you have a problem with make you little more then a little boy, and in combination with your long history of obnoxious rude loudmouthed violent and coarse bahaviour they make you seem more then a little psychopathic. Not unlike Jeffrey. Two peas in a pod one might say.

Tel Afar Tel Afar, you have about as much credibility as a used car sales man Bruno. TAI-Bruno at a peace rally, or a war demonstration? Then count me out. I mean that, Bruno, although you'll probably about now be having trouble determining "NO" from any other word, like every other rapist and loser of your gender.

Rubin said...

There once was a Cow called Moo Shea

Who ate six bushels a day

It soon came to pass

She was bloated with gas

And spoke out her ass all day

________________________

fyi foo shea,

I am Moo Foo Fighter!

Moooooo

patrick said...

"It is only those who fight for Iraq, those who resist occupation, that can be called a resistance."

"Once again, there are plenty of people planting car bombs on streets and at mosques, who assassinate people working in the Water department, etc who believe they are "resisting the occuapation".
I have my doubts you could tell the difference between your "true" resistance and the one occuring daily in Iraq. I have my doubts any such difference exists."

There is no 'true resistance' and there is nothing at all good that comes from any act of violence in the name of 'resisten

The resistance' is a myth, a foil, a propaganda tool, made by Salafists, Baathists, and other enemies of the democartic Iraq, to fool gullible western leftists who buy into the cr*p about western aggression. Yes, the US and coalition invaded Iraq and liberated Iraq from Saddam's regime and now is trying to help make Iraq a stable and democratic nation. The resistance' is about resisting Iraq's political development as a sovereign and democratic nation.

Had their been no 'resistance', the US forces would have mostly been home by now, as the Iraqi forces would have been quite capable of managing normal criminal and obrder threats. had there been no 'resistance', the movement to democracy and better security and economic conditions would have been smoother, the $18 billion for reconstruction would have actually been spend on economic improvement (instead of mostly on security matters). the terrorists and insurgents only make the coalition forces stay longer; their attacks on Iraqi forces, both policemen, civilian ministry official, and army recruits, all are about slowing down the process of getting the new Iraq Government capable of self-Government. It all points to the real truth about the 'resistance': IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A VIOLENT, TERRORIST, UNJUSTIFIED INSURGENCY AGAINST THE LEGITIMATE DEMOCRATIC IRAQI GOVERNMENT.

The sooner it ends the better for Iraq.

"The American soldier is trying to protect me from the terrorists and the American president saved me from Saddam's regime. If this is an occupation then I show my deepest respect to it and if such suicide attacks are called resistance then let the resistance go to hell." - Hoshyar Z.-Duhok/Iraq, 2004

patrick said...

"Viva La Cinco de Mayo!!!!!!!!!!!! or what ever you like."

Since this Mexican holiday celebrates the defeat of the French (at the hands of Mexicans in 1862), and the last serious attempt of European meddling on the American contintent, I find your comment about rejecting Euro culture somewhat amusing ...

"Mexican/Hispanic/Latin American culture CAN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN European culture for the past 50 years!"

patrick said...

" Today, on the second day of your new government, a suicide bomber detonated himself inside a restaurant frequented by Iraqi police. Vive le Resistance! He killed three police officers. Vive le Resistance! Oh and nine others who were not police. So, um, maybe 1+1=2 doesn't cover it? Maybe 3/12*100 = 25% Vive le Resistance!; 9/12*100 = 75% "Terrorism"? I simplify it by saying, to myself and now to you, there are a dozen newly dead Iraqis today who should be still alive."

All true.

A simple truth is this: Iraq has a freer press now than any other Arab country. Iraq has new democratic institutions. The real Iraqi patriots are the ones building the new Iraq each day with peaceful efforts.