6.26.2009
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28 Comments:
Be careful. Many are starting to call Mousavi a Mossad agent. They might start calling you one too.
Mousavi helped coordinate Israel's help to Iran against Saddam in the 1980s. Now his enemies are using it against him. What puzzles me about this is that Khamenei was also a part of the Israel/Iran covert alliance against Saddam.
Annie, do you support Khamenei and Ahmenijad against Montezeri, Senei, Rafsanjani, Khatami, Mousavi and their allies?
I'm not surprised. I saw on CNN the other day an Iranian ambassador accusing the CIA for Neda's murder. I was like WTF? Was he serious? I guess he was! He was interviewed by Wolf Blitzer live...
Funny.
What I don't get is Khomeini, Mousavi and Khamenei would have been out of their minds to not take Israeli help against Saddam (make no mistake . . . Khomeini, Khamenei, Rafsanjani and Mousavi all agreed with taking Israeli help against Saddam.) Iran might have lost the war without Israeli help. Any nationalist Iranian would have taken Israeli help.
So why are they attacking Mousavi for it now?
{For Mousavi's enemies, calling him a Mousad agent is a worse put down than calling him a CIA agent.}
Iran has been lashing out at the West for being to critical of what's happening. I'm curious if other countries in the Middle East have remained silent or are outright supportive of the brutality. It could help the people of Iran immensely if those from the region would speak up.
what a funny comic.
Annie, do you support Khamenei and Ahmenijad against Montezeri, Senei, Rafsanjani, Khatami, Mousavi and their allies?
oh, let me consult my PC dictionary. perhaps you think i am an expert on everything! last i thought about it i don't 'support' any iranian politicians or religious figures (and haven't heard of some of these guys you mention). i have the same access to reems of BS propaganda that you do. i would have to spend some more time researching the history of these people prior to making that kind of judgment call.
why is it i am supposed to care about iran? oh yeah, because they are in the access of evil? because they are a threat to israel according to israel? because they are right on the brink of developing a nuclear weapon, according to lots of msm? and then they will be in very good company! like US/IS/PAK/INDIA/CHINA?NK
like i care to stick my nose into this ! you care about iranians getting flogged? what about the black and decker school of the americas? what about the flogging of this guy?
whaddeva, lets just say iran is not my focus other than their influence in iraq. i am more concerned about the oppression of other people right now. iranians are off my sympathy radar in general. and neda? i wonder how many beautiful young women have been bloodied up and killer in afpak drone village attacks? where are the non stop photos of those virgin corpses?
what did you think of the coup in honduras? interesting. do you think we will get 24/7 weekly coverage?
anand, this is for you. it is a photo of an iranian woman w/the caption 'the hand that rocks the cradle'. it is about 'liberation'.
btw, i was in bil'in, west bank a few weeks ago and attended one of the protests against the apartheid wall being constructed there (we were confronted w/idf's and their tear gas). at the time i signed up for their (Friends of Freedom and Justice - Bilin) listserve and get updates of what's happening there. here is a video from last night. these raids have been going on for a long time.
At around 2:30am two groups of around 35 soldiers (70 total) descended on the village of Bi'lin. They raided several houses, detained their inhabitants, and searched the inside of the houses. When members of the ISM (International Solidarity Movement) and the Popular Committee of Bi'lin confronted the soldiers, they called all of Bi'lin a closed military zone and threatened to arrest anyone out of their house or anyone on top of a house taking pictures. In the course of these house raids, they kidnapped a 16 year old boy (Mohsen Kateb) from his house and took him away into the night. And they kidnapped a 16 year old boy (Hamoda Yaseen)from his house and took him away into the night. Haitham al-Katib, a respected Palestinian activist in Bi'lin was video taping the raids when soldiers aggressively pushed him against a wall and threatened him with arrest. Two members of the ISM intervened on his behalf and were able to wrest him out of the grasp of the soldiers. They then raided the house of Iyad Burant, the head of the popular committee, and threatened his 9 year old son (Abdal kalik) with physical harm if he didn't produce a camera he was holding. After several people including 2 internationals intervened by blocking the soldiers path, they were also threatened with arrest and were pushed by the soldiers. After repeated efforts, the soldiers gave up and left that particular house.
Off Script, so far the Sunni Arab dictatorships have been critical of Ahmenijad and Khamenei. The Arab world (including most of Iraq) seems to be backing the Rafsanjani, Mousavi, Khatami, Grand Ayatollah Montezeri, Grand Ayatollah Senei, Grand Ayatollah Bayyat Zanjani, Mehdi Karroubi combination. {Rafsanjani in particular has good relations with many Sunni Arabs.} Most Iraqis also seem to have a similar position. {Although Talabani and Muqtada are backing Ahmenijad. Talabani might be closer to Khamenei than any other prominent Iraqi politician.}
For better or worse, it looks like Khamenei/Ahmenijad have won. So perhaps this question is academic.
Now the world will recognize Khamenei's victory as a Fait accompli. It looks like Rafsanjani publicly acknowledged defeat today. So why should any foreigners now stick their neck out for the Iranian demonstrators?
Annie, a list of the top Quom Grand Ayatollahs is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grand_Ayatollahs
It looks like most of the Quom Grand Ayatollahs are against Khamenei and Ahmenijad. The last few weeks represents a major coups by Khamenei/Ahmenijad against the top Quom clerical establishment. I didn't think that they would be able to defeat the clerics so easily.
Off Script, the Sunni Arab dictators have been clearly against Khamenei and Ahmenijad in this episode. It didn't do the protesters any good. In any case their support of Iranian demonstrators while crushing their own demonstrators strikes me as hypocritical.
Anand:
"Many are starting to call Mousavi a Mossad agent. They might start calling you one too."
Well, if I was an Arab politician and I wanted to screw over my rival, especially in the Middle East, and endanger his 'supporters', I'd call him a Zionist, a Mossad agent or an Israeli lover. Heck, it's a proven formula ...
OffScript:
"It could help the people of Iran immensely if those from the region would speak up."
It's something that rarely happens in this region.
Annie:
You were in the 'West Bank' and you didn't tell me? Where did you stay? I would have come to meet you at Ben Gurion with a big "Welcome to Israel" poster!
Anand/Bassam -
Thought you guys may find this article interesting (see link below). It came out after the election, so I'm not sure if new information revealed has changed this man's observations. A few of his main points:
* It is claimed that Ahmadinejad won the city of Tabriz with 57%. His main opponent, Mir Hossein Mousavi, is an Azeri from Azerbaijan province, of which Tabriz is the capital. Mousavi, according to such polls as exist in Iran and widespread anecdotal evidence, did better in cities and is popular in Azerbaijan. Certainly, his rallies there were very well attended. So for an Azeri urban center to go so heavily for Ahmadinejad just makes no sense. In past elections, Azeris voted disproportionately for even minor presidential candidates who hailed from that province.
* It is claimed that cleric Mehdi Karoubi, the other reformist candidate, received 320,000 votes, and that he did poorly in Iran's western provinces, even losing in Luristan. He is a Lur and is popular in the west, including in Kurdistan. Karoubi received 17 percent of the vote in the first round of presidential elections in 2005. While it is possible that his support has substantially declined since then, it is hard to believe that he would get less than one percent of the vote. Moreover, he should have at least done well in the west, which he did not.
* Mohsen Rezaie, who polled very badly and seems not to have been at all popular, is alleged to have received 670,000 votes, twice as much as Karoubi.
* The Electoral Commission is supposed to wait three days before certifying the results of the election, at which point they are to inform Khamenei of the results, and he signs off on the process. The three-day delay is intended to allow charges of irregularities to be adjudicated. In this case, Khamenei immediately approved the alleged results.
The whole article can be found at this link. The author seems to be a moderate:
http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html
Don't think anyone can really blame the Zionists/Mossad/Israel for the above, well anyone but Annie of course! :)
You were in the 'West Bank' and you didn't tell me? Where did you stay? I would have come to meet you at Ben Gurion with a big "Welcome to Israel" poster!
i didn't enter thru ben gurion, i entered thru egypt. first i went to gaza. i though about contacting you but wasn't blogging and didn't have much access to a computer while i was there and besides was super busy. my trip to the region was three weeks and i actually saw a lot during that time , not so much in the WB where i didn't stay incidentally. while visiting the WB i was staying at a hostel in tel aviv one block from the beach (talk about a party town!) near the banana club outfit. how is israel doing lately. i heard about the tens of thousands protesting over the parking lot and the dueling rabbis disagreeing over the 320,000 conversions (its gonna take lots of russians to compete w/those reproducing palestinians!).
Don't think anyone can really blame the Zionists/Mossad/Israel for the above, well anyone but Annie of course! :)
let's just say i think the propaganda campaign was a group effort. i am not blaming any one source, but i am not excluding the US w/her 400 million investment in regime change secured last june. hmm, and exactly why wouldn't israel participate in destabilizing iran? (thru elections or any means, where there is a will there is a way and something tells me the WILL is there in spades).
wrt to juan cole. i am not a fan in the least. he was a big pusher for the iraq war and tried to come off as somehow 'balanced'. he's not and never was.
btw, lots of theories floating around who started the disinfo campaign. i just read one that blamed the 'tehran bureau' out of harvard for god's sakes and i have no idea.
but i do know they aren't mobilizing over honduras. we get choice little tidbits like this :
A reporter asked whether the administration would insist that Zelaya be restored to power.
"We haven't laid out any demands that we're insisting on, because we're working with others on behalf of our ultimate objectives, which are shared broadly," Clinton replied
we're sending a delegation "to begin working with the parties" on the restoration of constitutional order, without the president! sweeeeet.
actually i came over here today to semi congragulate Bassam on his countries supposed new found freedom but also because i read about another bombing re kirkuk. i hear the US base there ain't going nowhere as it is outside the city limits. i am very worried about how on earth there is going to be any peace given the kurds want kirkuk for kurdistan and i am sure baghdad and turkey aren't down w/that. wonder what the US thinks?
4 of our soldiers died yesterday, or today. 25 last month. it still seems like war to me.
like..why do i care about iran? it seems like iranians are fairing pretty good in the middle east compared to others.
"i was staying at a hostel in tel aviv one block from the beach (talk about a party town!)"
MoMos by any chance? It is a CRAZY party town. Now that I'm married and a dad, I don't go there for that reason anymore ... It's too much for me ... It's like a "Jewish" New York. Wait a second, uuuh a "Jewish" Miami.
"how is israel doing lately."
crazy country ... internally, externally ... I still love it but I sometimes wonder what will happen to the Palestinians and Israelis if they don't fix themselves soon ...
"its gonna take lots of russians to compete w/those reproducing palestinians!"
The Russians don't really reproduce that much, between 1.5-2.0 kids at most per couple. The biggest 'kid makers' in this country are ultra orthodox Jews & modern orthodox Jews. The Arabs are still up there, but it's dropped off in Israel due to the lowering of child benefits (it also slowed down the ultra orthodox world). I was reading an article last week about the wages of Palestinians who work in the settlements ... MY LORD, they earn a better monthly salary than the average Israeli if the salary they quoted was real.
"let's just say i think the propaganda campaign was a group effort."
I don't know much about the US's 400 million dollar plan, but I think what we saw there is just typical of this region's combustability. They have it in many countries when governments are weakened (which A'mad is now), or there's a chance for change in the regime (see Lebanon before/after Hariri's assassination by ....)
"exactly why wouldn't israel participate in destabilizing iran?"
Because almost every left wing blogger I've read says that the only way Israel can push an attack on Iran is if A'mad is re-elected. Though, Mousavi is by no means some moderate leader, A'mad is just frowned upon by the int'l community. I wouldn't be surprised if they pull of a stunt shortly outside of Iran ... Btw, I've yet to hear any of my Muslim friends say they think Israel was involved, and most of them are rather 'anti' Israel to say the least.
"he was a big pusher for the iraq war"
Read what he said though ... People shouldn't be discounted because of past 'mistakes' ... Some people supported the war but to discount their opinion b/c of it unnecessary I feel.
"btw, lots of theories floating around who started the disinfo campaign."
I still love reading conspiracy theories ... Some of my favorite are related to the Mossad and how Jews control the world. I'm still calling 1-800-elder-ziyon to get my free bank account and 'how to rule the world' pamphlet. :)))
"i do know they aren't mobilizing over honduras"
No oil, eh? Zimbabwe ... DRCongo ... etc ...
Wait a second, uuuh a "Jewish" Miami.
sorta, but i've hung at the miami beaches. and i've hung at honolulu, and bali and LA and the yukatan, tialand, need i go on. nothing compares to the scene at tel aviv in terms of the bizarro. where else can you view dreadlocked twirling gymnastics to throbbing disco beats w/blackened weathered 70 yr old bikini diehards (skinny!) drinking mohitos w/wild blond curly sari dressed dancers and abundant gayness verging on freakazoid scitzoidness with naked kids in tow.??.i mean nowhere on the planet (and i've 'scene' my share) do you see this display..and all(mini) miles away from the most outrageous human rights violations/aparthied WALLS, and these people don't seem to CONNECT or even think about this stuff..really strange.
The Russians don't really reproduce that much
well, my point is that immigration makes up for what others aren't reproducing. hello. 320,000 aint nuthin'. i actually read about this after i came home, but while i was there lots of israelis were commenting (in whispers) 'lots of the russians aren't even jewish!'. i thought it was 5000 or something. but 320000000000000? ok, i exaggerated.
I still love it but I sometimes wonder what will happen to the Palestinians and Israelis if they don't fix themselves
it is so sad. did it ever occur to you that you are your own best friends and brothers? i swear the people i met there, on the inside of the peace movement, the two sides, they were so connected. they were such cool people and so close. there is a real bond between the jews and the palestinians in the peace movement. why can't everybody be like that? i loved it there. we met such loving people.
"exactly why wouldn't israel participate in destabilizing iran?"
Because almost every left wing blogger I've read says that the only way Israel can push an attack on Iran is if A'mad is re-elected.
double yawn. you will have to come up w/something better than that. go ahead and call mne a tinhat conspiracy theorist. no way no how would israel ignore and DO NOTHING to influence an electoral campaign of its biggest regional rival. this flies in the face of logic. my logic anyway.
:)
toodles
Bassam, dueling comics...wishful thinking, american style
It's called the 'booah', the bubble, in Hebrew. But it's understandable - look at the most Americans and how they continue on despite their country taking over from the Brits in destabilizing region after region.
There is a doubt about the Jewishness of many Russians after the mid-90s ... No one really knows for sure. I know a few Muslims RUssians who came here ... Served in the army and all. Odd.
"did it ever occur to you that you are your own best friends and brothers?"
That's not the case in my eyes. We can be 'friends' like we are with the Egyptians or JOrdanians but I don't see it, at least not in my life time, ever becoming 'best friends' etc. There's not much trust etc... between the two people and it will take a long time to build.
"go ahead and call mne a tinhat conspiracy theorist"
Ok you tinhat conspiracy theorist you!
avram, re the russians, check this out.
re friends like brothers
Watching Israeli Amiel Vardi confront a stonefaced commander, I want to do klezmer all night long. (highly recommended)
when the Israeli soldiers arrive to declare the lands a military zone-- for the appearance of a wiry middle-aged Israeli activist. This Israeli gets in the Israeli commander's face. He badgers him in Hebrew to state the reason why he is pushing the Palestinians off their land.
The activist is filled with passion and upset, and his heart is in his mouth. "You have to give a reason," he says. "I think more than anything you owe it to yourself."
there will be peace one day, and it will be the passion of peace loving palestinians and jews working together to make it happen. mark my words.
re iran:Israel seeks 'Plan B' if U.S.-Iran talks fail .
The Israeli messages - sent against the background of the recent unrest in Iran - have been delivered to the White House, the State Department and senior officials in the U.S. intelligence community by senior officials in the Prime Minister's Office and the Foreign Ministry. Similar messages have been sent to senior officials in Germany, Russia, France and Japan.
Israel's argument is that if the Americans are indeed committed to imposing "paralyzing sanctions" on Iran should the dialogue fail - as both U.S. President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have said in the past - the work of drafting these sanctions must begin now.
"Israel is adjusting its messages to the new circumstances created by the unrest in Iran," a senior government official said. "These things must be stated clearly now so that there is no confusion about our position."
there has never been any confusion about israels position. israel will stop at nothing to pound home their agenda even to the point of putting words in the mouth of the president which it did and got slapped down prior to the 'unrest' in iran, or don't you recall? i am not going to bother looking it up, but more than a month ago the hasbara campaign started floating rumors obama was going to demand some deadline of iran by this october or sanctions would be set. the next day at the WH briefing this was of course asked for confirmation and the spokeperson said no such deadline was demanded and obama was going to review the situation at the end of the year.
israel and nety have kept up this manipulated pressure against iran and even thrown it up as the main talking pt at the meeting w/obama.
and now we have a new revised image for the old tired pressure. it is supposedly as a result of the 'unrest'. it isn't. the only thing new is the image of all these dissatisfied voters in iran. so big deal. having lived thru 8 years of massively dissatisfied american voters (and a president picked by the supreme court) i know perfectly well nobody used this as a justification to sanction the US.
nothing has changed, just another revved up hasbara campaign by israel against iran.
yawn.
"there will be peace one day, and it will be the passion of peace loving palestinians and jews working together to make it happen. mark my words." I agree.
Annie, which of these three types of final settlements do you support?:
1) 1967 borders subject to territory swaps of equal quality (1993 Camp David Awards and Saudi peace plan.)
2) 1948 UN partition plan borders subject to territory swaps of equal quality
3) One free plural Palestinian state solution (or extending Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians.) Hamas supports this.
Annie, what are your proposal to handle Israeli eminent domain type confiscation of Palestinian private property paying below market prices or no price at all? How would you handle right of return?
I saw the article in haaretz.
Also, you shouldn't quote Phillip Weiss. He's makes you seem like a Likudnik. If you want an analysis of his issues, I can point you to a brilliant blog about his rantings.
I bet Biden's words were also 'hasbara'ized by the worldwide media. Man, I just wish Israel could control their own media as well as we control the world's! :)
Of course there's Plan B. We don't want Iran with nukes. Whether or not that leads to action (some are alluding to the Mossad's 2014 prediction of nukes as a 'reason' why there really isn't much friction right now in that department between the US/Israel).
Anand,
My answers:
"1) 1967 borders subject to territory swaps of equal quality (1993 Camp David Awards and Saudi peace plan.)"
That's what I would go with ... '67 borders with land swaps. A total separation of the people is sadly needed now - There's too much anger, hatred, distrust within both parties. The separation would obviously be temporary ... Eventually things would warm up as 'co-existence' becomes a norm (whether it becomes like the Egypt/Israel or Jordan/Israel peace, who knows)
Two other points:
1) there should also be compensation for Arab Jewry that lost land x5 the size of Israel AND 30 billion USD in assets in today's market.
2) Hamas supports a plural state where THEY'RE in control. That's not gonna work if you're a secular Muslim (like most of the West Bank), an Israeli (unless you're part of the binational staters) or another minority (be it bahai, christian etc) ...
you shouldn't quote Phillip Weiss.
well, did you see the video? why don't you tell me clearly what part of philip weiss's description you take issue with. i normally don't quote him but in this instance it was an excellent video, and i thought his description was top notch.
something tells me biden is just being biden. he has a reputation for sticking his foot in his mouth on occasion.
Of course there's Plan B
otherwise known as plan A.
wrt a palestinian state i am not really for much in the way of land swaps. i think it is very clear what the settlers have been doing. i think jerusalem is the holy city and should be an international city and also the capital of palestine. so the borders i don't think are as important as the kind of state being offered. some of those settlements on palestinian land sit right over the auquifiers and would control all the water beneath them 80% of which already goes to israel now anyway imho illegally. what good is a state if you relinguish your sovereignty over your resources? also this whole 'state land' thing israel has done whereby it needs these military zones. i don't think it is feasible to have these israeli roads passing thru. if israel needs a comfort zone it should make one inside their own borders. the settlements are damn ugly, they sit right on top of the hills and completely ruin the horizon line. it is really gross. they should be dismantled. so no, i am not down w/land swaps. i was driving thru israel and there are tons of places those settlements could go. this obsession w/filling up the landscape of the future state that looks gorgeous like tuscany, it has to stop. completely. and they are still building them btw. these people should be arrested.
as for the compensation of arab jews, do we really have to address this now? it reminds me of bibs wanting to talk about iran. plus, you know not everyone is totally down w/the meme of arabs kicking out all the jews. it just so happens israel needed and encouraged immigration and happened to be in cahoots with some of the governemnts around that time, like in iraq. so no i do not think this is the time to confuse the whole effort by dealing with people who have been an active part of israeli society for 60 years.
can we just deal with the palestinian issue please.
lots of people think the time has passed where 2 states is even feasible. what would be the pluses of having a state where your neighbors control your borders your airspace , all your resources and you were allowed a way to defend yourself?
so i think it is irrelevant to ask me where i think the borders should be, but i presume the 67 borders would be reasonable.
i think it is perfectly reasonable to ask the extremist elements of the elected palestinina government to step aside from negotiations if that is what israel is willing to do wrt to bibs and all the other radicals running the government. but as long as we have to deal w/the extremist politicians and their radical settler crowd, same should apply to palestine. no picking and choosing which puppets from the pal side you are going to dictate to.
and i mean that. did i already show you this????
Rebbe: They promised me and, and they
will surely keep their promise,
that of all the talks there will not
be any concessions of territories,
The talks are only so
the public shouldn't say that
Eretz Yisroel
is not interested in peace.
It doesn't mean
they're right,
in a perfect world there would be one state, like in america but i don't think people are ready for that now. but if israel doesn't offer up a viable state, the pals won't accept a shitty offer, and then it will continue till it implodes. israel should get a grip on their reality of occupation. there are too many books out, too many studies of facts on the ground, too much documentation for people not to know israel will not acqueisce to any state next door they won't control.
i don't think palestinians are going to budge on relinguishing a right of return unless whatever state they are offered is an excellent deal.
i would advise anyone examining what a fair deal for palestine is, to imagine that palestininas are just as smart as jews and have the same determination and will as jews. now ask yourself if what you are willing to offer is anything you would accept for yourself. because if it isn't, you are walking headlong into a future of one state.
as time goes on israel is looking worse and worse. and guess who israels should really be afraid of? jews like naomi klien and philip weis and jeff halper from israelis against home demolitions and that's not all. there are lots of jews who are just as determined on both side of this issue and about immoral actions being done in their name.
it isn't hamas you should be worried about, it is israel. i suppose you saw the headline today of livni accusing bibs of not really being sincere about a 2 state solution. yep. what are all those fruitcakes who are willing to riot over their parking lots open on saturday, how are they going to react to giving up a dream of ertz israel? there's your problem. deal with your own fanatics before worrying about hamas.
it will happen tho, i do believe. sooner or later.
peace out.
Phillip Weiss believes Israel has no right to exist. Hence, he's an extremist. I follow his site regularly just to see what extremists are up to ...
With regards to the rest of what you posted, I read it and to be honest, I can't be bothered to go around in circles again with you. You have an opinion which you will never budge on and that's acceptable to me - to each his own. There's no need for a re-run here for either of us.
With regards to the rest of what you posted, I read it and to be honest, I can't be bothered to go around in circles again with you.
that's ok avram. anand ask me some questions above @ 2:57 PM, i was responding to him.
Phillip Weiss believes Israel has no right to exist.
really? perhaps you would care you reference where you found this information. personally i don't think countries have 'rights' to existence per se, but that is just me. here's wiki
the idea as applied literally has no basis in ontology, as existence is a matter of fact rather than a moral right.
here's Menachem Begin
Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist?
no, probably not imho. it would certainly never occur to me for americans to 'recognize americas existence'. what would be the point?
i mean are we acknowledging iraq's right to exist? even before we invaded it. what about those plans to carve it up? what about the millions who have died? did they have a right to exist? more of a right than america had to invade iraq? and if we had bombed it to kingdom come and inserted any dictatorship we wanted or hypothetically imposed any kind of draconian laws, would iraq still exist? yeah, i guess. would it have a 'right' to exist? and would good would that right be if we can do whatever the f we want by invading it.
back to Begin:
We were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Jewish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land
that really clears things up. israel has a right to exist because of god.
newsflash, israel could still exist by making all the inhabitans who live in the area it controls citizens. this is why the new lingo of 'right to exist as a jewish state' has been added. and who gave israel that 'right', god? newsflash, by this definition anyone who is not a believer in god would have to conclude israel has no 'right' to exist.
israel exists. the people there have rights afforded by the states, the people israel controls are also supposed to have certain rights that israel has deemed they are not responsible (against geneva international law etc). but countries are afforded any kind of universal rights like people. check this out
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all countries are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
whoops! see how that doesn't quite square? because obviously all countries don't have the same 'rights', otherwise they wouldn't be subject to sanctions and stuff. like why does israel have the 'right' to nukes but iran doesn't? because of god?
lets go to Natural and legal rights.
Natural rights (also called moral rights or inalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. In contrast, legal rights (sometimes also called civil rights or statutory rights) are rights conveyed by a particular polity, codified into legal statutes by some form of legislature, and as such are contingent upon local laws, customs, or beliefs. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative.
con't
reading this one would have to conclude, since according to Begin, god gave israel the right to exist, that israels 'right' is a natural right (not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity).
interestingly, from the same source
the notion of inalienable rights was found in early Islamic law and jurisprudence, which denied a ruler "the right to take away from his subjects certain rights which inhere in his or her person as a human being." Islamic rulers could not take away certain rights from their subjects on the basis that "they become rights by reason of the fact that they are given to a subject by a law and from a source which no ruler can question or alter."[5] These ideas may have later influenced John Locke's concept of inalienable rights through his attendance of lectures given by Edward Pococke, a professor of Arabic studies.[6]
....
Martin Luther wrote:
“ Furthermore, every man is responsible for his own faith, and he must see it for himself that he believes rightly. As little as another can go to hell or heaven for me, so little can he believe or disbelieve for me; and as little as he can open or shut heaven or hell for me, so little can he drive me to faith or unbelief. Since, then, belief or unbelief is a matter of every one's conscience, and since this is no lessening of the secular power, the latter should be content and attend to its own affairs and permit men to believe one thing or another, as they are able and willing, and constrain no one by force.[8]
frankly, the way i see it, one would have to believe as begin did, that god gave israel the right to exist in its present location, for without this belief i can't for the life of me figure out why israel should have any more right to exist where it does than any other country would have a 'right' to exist in that location.
countries don't have rights to exist imho, they just exist. the people in them have rights tho, except for places inside ertez yisrael where lots of people don't have rights. so when god gave israel the right to exist, was he talking about israel, or ertez yisrael . and once israel has been acknowledged as having a 'right' to exist, will then we all be task with acknowledging the area of ertez yisrael to exist?
ok
and while were at it
and once israel has been acknowledged as having a 'right' to exist (as a jewish state), will then we all be task with acknowledging the area of ertez yisrael to exist (as a jewish state)?
see where this is heading?
imo, this whole task of asking anyone to acknowledge and countries right to existence is a trap. better to just ask them to respect the sovereignty of the state and the people in it.
ok! :)
what do you think of the new law wrt nakba avram? i was reminded of 'right to exist' when i heard about it. it would seem one way to ensure the kind of 'democracy' in your country is to outlaw freedom of expression.
The new bill prohibits funding of activities that reject the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state or deny the democratic character of the state.
It also outlaws funding for activities that fall within the definition of armed struggle or terrorist activities - by an enemy state or a terror organization - against Israel.
Additionally, the bill prohibits funding for activities that could harm the honor of the flag, the state or state symbols.
the way it reads it appears a teacher could be arrested for carefully examining the way israel operates as a democracy. when the demographics is controlled and freedom of expression curtailed to guarentee a pre determined outcome in order for the democratic results to come into your favor than is it really a democracy? you don't have to answer that, but note it is not a question that could be explored in a classroom under the new legislation.
cheerio.
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