As I was heading out to get some lunch with my coworkers, I came across this anti two-state solution demonstration in front of the White House.
Click on the picture to see more.
5.18.2009
Anti two-state demonstration in front of the White House
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18 Comments:
What are your thoughts on Palestine and Israel?
Oh man! That takes months to talk about, but in brief I believe that a two-state solution is the best. I don't really think that the Palestinians should continue fighting until they "liberate" Jerusalem because Israel is a state and a strong one that will never let that happen. They can't just defeat it with stones and rockets.
On the other hand, I believe that the Israelis should withdraw from the occupied territories and try to accept a Palestinian neighboring state. I don't believe in the whole God-promised-us-this-land thing. Continuing this belief will never lead to a stable region as it will not lead to establishing a Palestinian state.
So much pain and horror has been happening and it's time to stop.
2 states for 2 people ... essential for stability of the region, if not the world.
"I don't believe in the whole God-promised-us-this-land thing."
Out of curiosity, doesn't the Qu'ran say something along the same lines though?
I have to do some research about that but I think it does mention that and then it mentions that God got angry with the Israelis and that's why they lost their land. Not very sure, though.
The reason I said I don't believe in it is because it's been so long ago and it doesn't really work in these days just like many other things in all religions, including Islam.
We live in a different world now. The last thing we need to is to stick to religion. I believe all religions have caused so much pain to people and it separated them more than it united them.
We are all human beings and that's what matter to me.
Bassam, I like your views on Palestine. :-)
I am a person of faith and might be willing to accept that God might have given land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua and David. However, the land would have been given to :THEM" 3,000 or more years ago. It does not belong to their modern descendants (even if we could say with confidence who those descendants are.)
I think there should either be a 2 state solution (along the 1948 UN partition plan, or the 1967 borders subject to territorial exchanges of equal quality), or a one free democratic plural state solution (shared by Palestinians and Israelis.)
Both Palestinians and Israelis have a symbiotic relationship and greatly benefit from the success of the other. I agree with you Bassam that Palestinians should use nonviolent resistance to get what they are entitled to.
Anand,
Yes, the land was given to them thousands of years ago. However, geography and the demographic situation of any land change.
In my opinion, we have to make some sacrifices and accept the change that happened in a peaceful way. Palestinians and Israelis should acknowledge that they do not want to leave that land, so they have to come up with a solution. I know it was hard for the Palestinians to accept their state at first, but now things changed and they have to accept that.
The Israelis must accept that even though God "promised" them this land, there are other inhabitants on it and it's not possible to wipe them out. So they should accept a neighbor once was an enemy if they both want to live in at least relative peace.
I like the plural state solution too, but don't you think this happens in movies?! I just don't see it happen at all because each one of them will say this is my land and I should be the leader. So let the Palestinians have their state and let the Israelis keep theirs.
"I like the plural state solution too, but don't you think this happens in movies?! I just don't see it happen at all because each one of them will say this is my land and I should be the leader. So let the Palestinians have their state and let the Israelis keep theirs." :lol: I am American. In America Palestinians and Israelis get along fine, so why can't they in their own country . . . or so I sometimes think. Many free plural democracies such as America, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, Canada, New Zealand have managed to get by rather well.
In a recent poll, 53% of Palestinians favored a one state solution. Hamas officially favors a one state solution. It seems like many Palestinians want a one free plural state solution. Unfortunately, however Palestinians want to marry Israel without courting Israel ;-) Sometimes there seems to be a disconnect between what Palestinians say they want and what they do.
"Both Palestinians and Israelis have a symbiotic relationship and greatly benefit from the success of the other."
It's why it's very unfortunate both people couldn't make the partition plan work. The Middle East would have been a 'super power'.
"America, India, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, Canada, New Zealand have managed to get by rather well."
Very different to the situation we currently have at hand - be it the historical difficulties Jews had in the Arab world (yellow stars as early as 1000 under dhimmi law for example) or Arab Jewish exodus, there's too much anger, hatred and distrust between our people to 'build' a plural state now - if not ever. Two states for two people to dictate their futures.
Wrt Hamas, you don't 'really' want a one state solution like they want it. Just look at the Fatah loyalists, or the Christian minority in Gaza
2 equal states or one state w/equality for all.
i'm ready to embrace the one that has more of a possibility of becomeing a reality today, as opposed to the ideal, which means i'm down w/the 2 state solution.
that's my compromise.
"that's my compromise."
ha ha - welcome back annie.
It's not 'your' compromise! It's the people living here who will compromise (everyone has to on something one way or another).
It's not 'your' compromise! gee avram, nothings changed.
no sense embracing the positive when you can dispute it. i am voicing my opinion as a member of the global community. i have my ideals which i place my energies and lobby towards.
my tax dollars and my country support yours, i have a say in what my politicians promote whether they listen or not. since israel is receiving billions of dollars a year from my government and leans on it to suit their purpose it is not for you or israel to assert It's solely the people living there who are impacted by the future plans. if you are going to have that attitude you should be lobbying your government to cut of ties w/the support, and AIPAC would cease to function.
wrt where i am focusing my energies i am compromising w/my own standards of the ideal situation to harvest equal rights and instead lobbying for what i think has more of a chance of implementation.
hence, the compromise.
ha ha, I didn't mean to come off harshly - I was just saying in the end though Annie - it's the Israelis and Palestinians who have the most important compromises to make. No matter what the 'outside' world wants Israelis or Palestinians to compromise on, it's our (I guess though it's more in our leaders' hands unfortunately) compromise to make (on land, the future etc.) - and the 'personal' compromises people make abroad won't make much of a difference to that (in my opinion)
"the ideal situation to harvest equal rights"
If there was a period in history where Jews & Arabs (not Moors or Turks) lived as equals in a country (I mean all citizens) where they were the 'dominant' powers (ie an Arab or Jewish country) - I'd say ok. But as there hasn't, it's always a worrying risk considering how both people are right now (on that I'm sure we can agree). Who knows, maybe after two states and coexistence/peace, you'll get your wish (though I doubt it will be in our lifetimes)
it's the Israelis and Palestinians who have the most important compromises to make.yes i totally agree.
the 'personal' compromises people make abroad won't make much of a difference to that (in my opinion)in one sense, i really wish i could agree with you but i can't and there are many who do not share your opinion in the least. for example we have to look no further than the powerful israel lobby who obviously takes great pains to influence people (abroad from israel), and they do this because they do not want to go it alone.
no man is an island and no country can be an island either as we all become more globalized.
anyway, as i see it we don't have much choice wrt trying to make our wishes come true. there is no time like the present. the unsustainability of the untenable situation as it stands now seems undeniable. therefore it seems inevitable a more enduring solution is in everyone's best interest. by everyone i mean all of those impacted by the policies of all those concerned. (very wide net cast here)
BT, i really liked your comment @9:11 pm
Annie, what role do you think China should play in solving the Palestine question? China is Israel's largest trading, investment and business collaboration partner after the US, and exercises great influence over Israel and its Arab neighbors. How about India (which buys 40% of Israel's defense exports and is co developing "star wars" missile defense and many other weapons systems with Israel; India also has significant influence with Arab countries)?
Personally, I don't think the rest of the world combined is as important as what Palestinians, Arabs and Israelis decide to do among themselves. But since you seem to think otherwise, please answer the question.
If I could change the topic; a major factor in the 90% drop in Iraqi violence was reconciliation (incomplete and imperfect though it was) between different groups of Iraqis. If Iraqi Sunni Arabs, Shia, Kurds can agree to resolve their differences mostly nonviolently; why can't Israelis and Palestinians.
Another model for Palestine is the reconciliation within the Iraqi Shia (Muqtada, ISCI, Dawa, secular tribes, Allawi, Iraqi Communists, former Baa3thist Shia), and within Iraqi Sunni Arabs (Mutlaq versus the different Sahwa, versus Ninevah sunni arabs, Hashemi, former resistance groups.)
If Iraq seems to be doing it; why can't Palestinians and Israelis? They have been living together since 640 AD.
If I remember correctly, prior to 1969, The West Bank was a part of Jordan and Gaza was a part of Egypt. I haven't heard that the Palestinians before 1969 wanted their own State.
I know that a lot of Palestinians have made successful lives in Jordan. Queen Rania is of Palestinian ancestry. Why can't The West Bank just go back to being a part of Jordan?
I don't know if Gaza could go back to being a part of Egypt. I doubt that the Egyptian government would like to allow Hamas members free access to roam Egypt.
As far as Israel goes, they have illegally confiscated parts of The West Bank and built settlements there. Those settlements must be removed. Doing so may cause an Israeli civil war, but it is the right thing to do.
"for example we have to look no further than the powerful israel lobby who obviously takes great pains to influence people (abroad from israel), and they do this because they do not want to go it alone."
I don't agree because if AIPAC say 'one state' and the Israeli & Palestinian people say 'two states' - it will be two states. Peace needs to come through Palestinian & Israeli eyes.
Well put Avram. Palestinians and Israelis have agency. They determine their own fate.
The people with most to lose from a two-state solution are the Iranian goverenment.
They rely on the whipping up of anti-Jewish feelings to distract their voters from their poor management of the country, and they plan long term to include the area of Israel as part of the revived Persian Empire. Hence the Hezbollah-Hamas pincer movement.
It is easy to talk about Israel withdrawing from the West Bank, but when they withdrew from Gaza it bacame a rocket launching site.
Neither the Egyptians nor the Jordanians nor the Lebanese want Palestinian Arabs in their countries.
There are big problems all round.
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