As I was going to have lunch last Friday Jan. 9, I came across this anti-war-on-Gaza demonstration at the Lafayette Square, across the street from the front of the White House.
blog.bassamsebti@gmail.com
1.11.2009
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Bassam - seems like a relatively mild demonstration, and no calls for Jews to be killed, like from this very silly woman:
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/i_think_this_is_whats_known_as.php
But they seem to be saying "Free Palestine" which **kind of** implies **No Israel**
No doubt some of your readers will be fine with that - but perhaps they should reflect on whether they care more about the imperialistic Islamic world-view or Palestinian lives? If they cared about the latter, they would be shouting "Hamas - stop destroying the 2 state solution" or "Rockets into Israel cause Palestinian deaths".
But I guess the Arab world isn't very good at self-criticism.
Zak
Zak
How are you doing man? Long time. Keep blogging!
Yo, Gopal! Doing great here, my friend. I hope you are doing well too :)
Bassam!
We to here in Sweden have had a lot of demonstrations for the Palestinian people and peace. Even Israelis have been demonstrating in Israel towns. Did you hear about the Jewish ladies who occupied the Israeli consulate in Toronto? Not in their names is the message they want to get out.
Take Care Bassam!
Peace/
Nadia
Forgot this very important letter:
...We refuse to remain silent while Israeli leaders force Israeli soldiers to commit war crimes: crimes against humanity for which they will one day be called to account. Israeli soldiers of conscience can, and must, stop this dangerous, illegal, and immoral war.
...
http://www.ajjp.org/campaigns/signStatement.php?cid=15
The demonstration in London was the most powerful so far! I wonder when Israel's government realizes that most people in the world are not supporting their mass punishment of Hamas and civilians in Gaza.
http://www.inewsit.com/video/gallery/London-GAZA-Protesters-clash-with-police-Israeli-Embassy-in-London
Also, I came across this article.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123136613816062175.html
"But we were held hostage by Hamas while our government ignored us, and now we fight back. I am sorry, but I am happy."
Hostages?!!! They have running clean water, electricity, gas, schools, and everything else and they say they were hostages! How about the Gazans who were subjected to harsh embargo? No fuel, no electricity and no water? And now bombs!
And happy? I can't believe that seeing an aircraft throws missiles on civilians can make human beings happy.
Yes, Hamas is a bad, bad group. But that is not an excuse to massacre civilians in this brutal way.
The Israelis who are cheering on the top of that hill will remember it when the orphaned kids grow up and become the new Hamas who will never forgive what they saw in the war.
Bassam, your condemnation of Hamas is PATHETIC!
No rockets would have meant no deaths in Gaza. Very simple. Hamas brought this on.
Zak,
Proudly I say that I'm one of the few people who strongly condemn Hamas and consider them a terrorist organization (As an Arab, of course).
So if you need more condemnation than that, you won't find it here.
It seems that your anger towards the worldwide outrage has left you unable to distinguish who is with Hamas and who is not.
I care about neither Hamas nor the Israeli military because they both terrorize civilians. All I care about are those civilians who are surrounded by bombs and missiles whether they are in Israel or Gaza.
I think your government's human rights claims are a sham. What is happening in Gaza and what happened in Lebanon in destroying the infrastructure of a neighboring country because one political group opposed you was good proof.
Ironically this war turned Israel's reputation and claims the opposite way. The whole world is watching and judging.
Bassam,
Israel will leave your judgment and the world's judgment to a time when her children can go to school without worrying about rockets falling through their classroom roofs.
The sad truth is that Hamas knows how people like you feel when they see Arab children being killed. That's why their immoral behavior works - over and over again - no matter how many times they fire rockets from Gaza city or store bombs in mosques, no human being ho is attached to suffering is left with enough emotional strength to think clearly. You are just part of their cynical calculations. Can you not see that?
Finally, you raise a true point, that with this invasion, we create anger that will last. You've actually made this point twice now - it is true, we know.
But, from our perspective, there's nothing we can do. We've tried hard, very hard - pulling out of Gaza in 2005 - to take away reasons for Palestinian anger. But when we did that, Islamic extremists saw it as weakness, and used their new found free space to start lobbing rockets into our cities.
It is sad but true that had Israel NOT left Gaza in 2005, their would have been LESS murderous rocket attacks, LESS reason for the IDF to use its might, and MORE Gazans alive today.
You see my point?
Zak
"MORE Gazans alive today" ... as strangers in their own land! Like how the rest of the Palestinians are living in Israel now.
I've just finished reading this heart-breaking and very realistic essay, written by a Palestinian reporter who works for the Independent.
Such a tragedy! It reminded me of the days when we had to flee our house when the Americans landed in my neighborhood. Yes, leaving your house behind was shameful and heartbreaking. You build it with every penny you have but then you see it destroyed within seconds.
You can rebuild the buildings but how can you rebuild the peace in people's hearts?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/soon-well-have-nowhere-left-to-run-nowhere-in-gaza-is-safe-1301560.html
I'm not sure why you think it is "their" land any more than it is "our" land. But that you do think so explains quite well why you go soft on murderous rocket attacks that hit schools and old age homes. Because at the end of the day, history started about 700 AD with the prophet Mohamed and deep down, in your eyes, it is those rockets are totally justified expressions of a "natural yearning for freedom" no doubt.
Give me a break! Israel is as Palestinian as Baghdad is Jewish!
Re the story: The constructive question asked by those who really care about Palestinians is - was this disaster avoidable?
"But that you do think so explains quite well why you go soft on murderous rocket attacks that hit schools and old age homes."
I think I have made it quite clear that I do not support those militants and what they do to scare Israelis. What else do you want me to say in order not to "go soft" on those murderous rockets? Do you want me to say I'm happy that my fellow Arab civilians are being killed by the Israelis? Hell no. I lived in a war zone my entire life. I know how it feels when you hear a bomb and see a missile fall off a warplane to kill your neighbor or your friend. I know how it feels to see a child burning or crying next to his parents' dead body.
Killing innocent civilians must not be justified. I can't believe you can't even feel sorry for the innocent. I have denounced Hamas like a hundred times and it did not occur to you to at least say what is happening to the Palestinians is injustice. You know why you are doing this? Because deep deep inside you feel they deserve it. No innocent civilian on earth deserves to be killed in this inhumane way.
I wonder if you even have media access to the massacres your military is doing. Children lying next to their dead parents, people burned and killed, building collapsed burying civilians under the rubble.
What else? What else? I can't believe you can even sleep when you see a child crying on TV in front of his dead mom or dad.
As for the land, you and the entire world know that Israel the state was created by force: Taking Palestinians lands by force and leaving them in a shitty situation. Now that does not mean I do not recognize Israel as a state. I certainly do, but I do it because it's the only way to stop the violence there. And do not take me back to thousands of years ago in history because regions change and people move. If Jews had cared about their land that much, why had they left it and resided in other parts of the world?
Baghdad was not Jewish. The Iraqi Jewish community was a minority in the country. They lived in Baghdad and sadly were driven out of it and if there is any way I can bring them back there, I would do it rather than having them be part of a nation that slaughters innocent civilians.
I'm sorry if I'm being harsh here, but that's the reality and that's what the entire world knows and is aware of. I think the worldwide anger and protests are clearer than my own words.
"If Jews had cared about their land that much, why had they left it and resided in other parts of the world?"
We were expelled in 70 CE by the Romans, who in order to bastardize our presence on the land, called it ... Philistina (or Palestina).
Was Baghdad not 1/3 Jewish once? That's pretty impressive for a minority who had been on the land in some capacity since the days of the Babylonian exile (586 BCE).
I said in the 'Joe the Plumber' thread you should be careful about what you choose to believe - no one knows the facts here, NO ONE. And yet you assume x have died. History will either justify your outrage or claim it as yet another 'Jenin' lie that the world bought hook line n' sinker.
It's tragic that innocents die on either side. It's not a game either side's innocents willingly choose to play in. But you have to ask yourself why the Israeli public chose Kadima (moderate)/Labor (left) in 2006 to continue Sharon's plan of returning territory for peace while the Palestinians chose Hamas. It's unfortunate as despite his Holocaust denial and dark past (like most 'leaders' in this area), Abbas at least would have given 'peace a chance'.
Avram, you know very well where I stand in regards to the issue of the Iraqi Jews. So I'm not going to repeat what I have already written about previously.
"History will either justify your outrage or claim it as yet another 'Jenin' lie that the world bought hook line n' sinker."
And were Sabra and Chatila or the 2006 Lebanon massacres a "lie" too?
I'm sorry but it is like the kid who cried wolf.
"It's tragic that innocents die on either side. It's not a game either side's innocents willingly choose to play in."
THANK YOU! Here, we are on the same page.
I assume you're ok with my references to the Babylonian and Roman expulsion sir?
"And were Sabra and Chatila or the 2006 Lebanon massacres a "lie" too?"
Sabra and Chatilla ... I don't think I have enough time to go into this now, but we screwed up royally allowing that. Granted, even the Palestinians (here, they're curiously ignored) point a finger at Syria, but I guess that's not an issue with most people. For example:
* Lebanese Foundation for Peace
* The most comprehensive source of published information is by the body guard of Hobeika: Robert Hatem
nicknamed Cobra. Hatem wrote a diary of events leading up to and past the massacres. The book is banned in Lebanon, and many of the
participants are still active in Lebanese politics. Hatem is a political refugee hiding in France.
* The Voice of Palestine (Official Palestinian Radio Station), September 15,2000, reported that Brigadier General Sultan Abu-al- Aynayn, official in charge of the Fatah Movement in Lebanon, deplored the non-trial and non-questioning of Hobeika for the innocent blood that was spilled in the two refugee camps.
* Another source is Agence France Presse whose article "Massacre of Palestinians at refugee camps
remembered," was reported in the Jordan Times September 17,00. The story included the following
"BEIRUT (AFP) Palestinians and Lebanese commemorated the 18th anniversary on Saturday of the massacre of 1,500 Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. Relatives of the victims point an accusing finger at Elie Hobeika, now an outgoing
pro-Syrian member of parliament who was then the intelligence chief for the Lebanese forces. He denies all responsibility for the massacre."
I remember your piece about Iraqi Jews and Zionism. It's how I found your blog ... There's obvious glaring issues there as you neglect to mention the many problems Iraqi Jews faced:
* 1333 - the destruction of the Baghdad synaoguges
* 1776 - slaughter of Jews in Basra
* Read Lewis's "Islam in History" and how Jewish/Arab relations are descibe
* The problems in the 1930s with the rise of a pro-Nazi government.
I've gone through very little here - but much wrong was done to the Jews way before 'Zionism'. That's done, but continually going into it will never 'turn a page' for the better for either side.
The Jews deserve their homeland, the Palestinians their's. But if things don't change with regards to understanding our conflicted past int his region with each other, then an intertwined future is but a dream.
Bassam,
The word "terrorist" has moral implications that are unavoidable. Once you accept Hamas are terrorists, you must also accept that they can be fought with force. You call them "militants who aim to scare Israelis". By any definition - that is terrorism.
In everything I have written I have not said I do not feel pain for what is happening to Palestinian children. You call it "injustice" but is it not injustice to use residential neighborhoods to fire missiles from? That is injustice in my eyes.
As for the children deserving it? I wish Israel would have a massive tent in Sderot and offered any child under 16 to stay there, safe from our weapons, until the war was over. Hamas would probably kill anyone trying to use it though, no doubt.
You ask me why did we not return to our land earlier? The history of the Jews of the Middle East and Europe is one of being second class citizens for two thousand years. It's not like Jews had rights or the means to re-claim the land. But read any prayer book, returning to Zion was prayed for 3 times a day for 2 thousand years by Orthodox Jews, and filled the dreams of secular Jews.
Re Baghdad - I am aware that Baghdad is not Jewish, and my point is that neither is Israel Palestinian. That people used to live there, Jews in Baghdad, Palestinians in Israel is not something that is reversible.
And whilst you may welcome back the Jews of Baghdad so as to help them avoid being part of a nation that "slaughters children", perhaps you should inquire who was threatening to slaughter who when the Jews of Baghdad left your city. Heck, why look at the Jews, just look at what Moslems do to each other! Is that not injustice? What about all the Christians who are persecuted in your country? Where is your outrage Bassam?
I don't like using this quote, because I imagine it is patronising for an Arab to hear it. But since you accused me of thinking that "the children deserve it", allow me to quote Golda Meir, our ex Prime Minister.
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing or children, but we can't forgive the Arabs for making us kill their children".
I don't think I can forgive Hamas for using human shields.
No rockets would have meant no deaths in Gaza. Very simple. Hamas brought this on.
this is crazy, i already linked to the israeli intelligence website contradicting this: (their bold)
The Situation on the Ground (As of November 5, 1700 hours)
9. It was the first time since the lull arrangement went into effect that Hamas participated in firing rockets into Israel . It was also the first time that the terrorist organizations attacked Israel with massive amounts of rocket and mortar shell fire (until now there were occasional violations of single rockets or mortar shells being fired).
this was AFTER israeli invaded gaza and broke the ceasefire on NOV 4th!
source: Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center
at the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Center (IICC)
video: Israel admits: "No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire"
graph from israeli consulate
anyone following this story KNOWS this by now.
Yes Annie, there were no rockets from Hamas because it was a ceasefire. That's what a ceasefire is - a cessation of fire.
Re the video that cuts the israeli spokesperson off in mid sentence:
The increase in rockets fired by Hamas was after the ceasefire expired three weeks ago. Who said any different? Israel also invaded after Hamas made it clear they wanted to ceasefire to expire, by firing those rockets.
Annie said: i already linked to the israeli intelligence website contradicting this.
just because the link you posted exists, doesn't mean that it means what you say it does. The information in your link confirms the fact that the Israeli invasion of Gaza is a response to rocket attacks. Israel didn't invade Gaza on November the 6th, they invaded a month and a half later when it became clear that Hamas had armed itself with dangerous rockets and had intention of using them. Which they did.
Annie and Bassam here is some information:
Hasbara spam alert
With Israel's foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
Nadia instead of writing off any view not in accrdance with yours as spam, take a breath and think about a real response.
I think Bassam will tell you Nadia that I've been a fan of his blog for a whlie -
I know it isn't in your spirit to read and learn another person's point of view when it's not in your own as you've been brought up, as we discussed earlier last week, on hatred.
The increase in rockets fired by Hamas was after the ceasefire expired three weeks ago.
nice divert. there was an increase after the expiration of the ceasefire but that is rather beside the point. prior to the 'increase' there was a barrage of fire that began a month before, as anyone following the news, along with anyone reading the report i just posted knows,
the peace from the cessation of rockets as a result of the ceasefire WAS BROKEN AFTER israel entered gaza and killed people on nov 4th. the rockets did not BEGIN after a cessation of the ceasefire, but after israel BROKE the ceasefire by invading gaza on the election day in the united states, a day that was probably the MOST LIKELY to be ignored over any day over the last year, if not 2. that day of nov 4th which was most definitely prior to the expiration of the ceasefire.
when i say 'invade' i am not referring to the same massive assault invasion that included the airbombing. i am speaking of invading in the middle of the night and killing 7 or so palestinians. would you like me to call that invasive action an operation? fine
this would be the same operation the nyt wrote about on nov 4th, or 5th w/the headline 'israel breaks the ceasefire'. i already linked to it in Bassams 'Israel new war' thread.
nadia, i know. during israels war on lebanon was israels foriegn ministry started offering the download. thanks for the reminder for anyone not already familiar. the little armies of keyboarders for israel have the help of added technology to assist them in spreading their talking pts all over the internet w/in moments of stories hitting the wires, but i don't think it is going to do much really. after all there are only so many of them, with only so much to say.
last night on the news i heard the most rediculous allegation i first learned the seed here (100's of deaths of gazans are due to gazans killing eachother in revenge, yeah right). but it was so obviously a lie the announcer said 'israel claims..there is no proof of this so far' IOW, just some fantasy for us to chew on as the numbers of deaths keep rolling in.
nadia, another thing..notice the constant reliance on ad hominems and strawmen by team israel to divert. it isn't only here it is all over the thread whenever they appear. their talking pts only go so far. they remind me of stepford wives who go on autopilot when the discourse doesn't fit any of the talking pts. for the most part they don't go too far off script.
9. It was the first time since the lull arrangement went into effect that Hamas participated in firing rockets into Israel . It was also the first time that the terrorist organizations attacked Israel with massive amounts of rocket and mortar shell fire (until now there were occasional violations of single rockets or mortar shells being fired).
this is called the horses mouth zak.
zak, just because the link you posted exists, doesn't mean that it means what you say it does.
actually zak i think the words of the report speak for themselves. instead of writing off any view not in accordance with yours, take a breath and think about a real response.
The information in your link confirms the fact that the Israeli invasion of Gaza is a response to rocket attacks.
actually it doesn't confirm the allegation israel was acting in response to anything. it merely confirmed israel intelligence asserted they had evidence of some allegations of an 'imminent' attack by gaza into israel with was used as the justification for breaking the ceasefire that had been quite successful in creating a lull in violence. that is all it confirmed. furthermore you can't state intentions as facts. if you could this would be fact:
The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
by all means take a breath and think about a real response.
Avram i do so appreciate you demonstrating the art of jingjitsu insult ad hominem spaming! especially the part about you knowing nadias 'spirit'/insert/hatred/insert/the way she was raised..all in one little bite size paragraph.
excellent excellent demonstration.
is that ALL you have to say? by all means take a breath and think about a real response.
As I said in my post Annie, I am not a 'spammer'. Bassam will confirm that for you if you ask him I'm sure.
I've talked to Nadia in the past and she's come off as a hate filled individual, precisely the type of person there's not point in really talking to. There's also a reason I don't really bother much with you and your wonderful strangle hold of the truth. Carry on then.
Yes, Avram is not a spammer. We have become online friends since 2007, even though we disagree on certain things and that's normal.
Re the video that cuts the israeli spokesperson off in mid sentence:
let's watch that video again
"'during the entire period of the ceasefire, no israelis were killed'.......there were no rockets during the ceasefire til after novemebr 4th
that's correct."
so what would you like to ad to that 'cut off' that somehow dispels the evidence that the rockets starting up were A RESPONSE to israel breaking the ceasefire, invading on nov fourth in 'operation tunnel allegation'?
because it seems all you've got going for you here is the 'faith' your audience will treat israels allegations of 'response' as 'fact' when in fact, they don't represent fact, they represent fanatasy.
'fact' would have to lead us to the conclusion, as shown in the graphs, that the 'response' would have to follow the 'initial action'.
since there has been no proof presented thus far (in fact it is very hard to prove what is 'imminent') of israels allegation hamas was on the verge of breaking the ceasefire by kidnapping israeli soldiers we are left with only one thing to determine what hwo be considered the INITIAL action thrusting the situation from PEACE from rocket attacks (ie in your own words 'there were no rockets from Hamas because it was a ceasefire') for millions of residence of southern israel, to a barrage of fire.
now..if you can just follow this train of thought.
reaction follows initial action.
1. nov 4th israel invades gaza in operation tunnel allegation killing numerous people
2. rockets start for the first time breaking ceasefire
it would appear the FACTS would have to weigh more heavily towards the timeline, the actual statements by team israel of 'there were no rockets from Hamas because it was a ceasefire'), the evidence of dead palestinians soldiers...all of this logically leads to the conclusion of the rocket attacks actually being a REACTION.
now, if you would also like to assert you reacted to a reaction..go for it. but frankly there were other alternatives than this massive force of disproportion, as evidence suggests if you were really concerned about the civilians in the south and all their fear and whatever, you could have simply NOT INITIATED the hostilities by breaking the ceasefire.
take a breath and think about a real response.
i'm not clear how saying you know someones spirit, and it is based on hate, is ever not a gross insult.
i think if one is going to be making those kinds of allegations, as a response to information, then one should back it up w/a quote or something to put it into context. in this case perhaps because avram already asserted or accused nadia of hate before he thinks he can now speak of the past tense as 'we discussed', meaning he is repeating the slander.
also, nadia posted to a msm article. i would imagine the information was not made out of while cloth. addressing or criticing the information in the article by accusing someone of having a spirit of hate seems rather a gross violation of fair play, at least in my book.
anyway, i will of course respect the wishies not to call this insulting stuff spam
let me rephrase that
Avram i do so appreciate you demonstrating the art of jingjitsu insult ad hominem blogging! especially the part about you knowing nadias 'spirit'/insert/hatred/insert/the way she was raised..all in one little bite size paragraph.
so avram, what do you think of that megaphone download article nadia posted? more wonderful strangle hold of the truth? is this the first time you have ever heard about it. does it give you comfort knowing the government of israel is so adapt at providing these tools for israels side to get out on the internet, disguised as random people who happen apon blogs and msm comment sections?
do you think its working? it is a bit like the emperors new clothes eh? so much of what israel says has to be taken on faith, since they hold the monopoly on who gets to enter gaza.
also i am quite curious how it is one can not be violating the request of being respectful if accusations of a person being filled with hate is acceptable.
what i understand is accusations of being a spammer is somehow worse than accusing someone of being a hate filled individual.
so maybe we need to ask ourselves what is a worse insult than accusing someone of being hate filled?
i must be missing something, it appears any insult is allowed as long as we follow the formality of being polite while saying it? perhaps if we are clearing the air and setting the record staight someone else will stand up for nadia, who has been posting here for a while and say she is not hate filled.
or is this also not worth defending? where do we draw the line on ad hominem attacks and their usefulness on this, or any other, blog?
Annie,
From the report you seem to enjoy posting (3 times now) it seems you are convinced that Israel broke the ceasefire and that is why Hamas decided to continue fighting when the 6 month truce expired. That's just not true. Although there were rocket attacks from Hamas after Israel bombed tunnels that could be used for kidnapping soldiers, like Gilad Shalit, even Hamas didn't pretend that that was their reason for not re-newing the ceasefire. Hamas were not content to let the ceasefire continue without a lifting of the blockade and an ending of arrests of Hamas members in the West Bank. They increased the number and critically - range - of their own rocket attacks after the ceasefire ended. This forced the hands of Israeli leaders, as the Israeli public were furious at the rockets. And by the way, as the ruling authority during the ceasefire, the Israeli public was already furious with Hamas for turning a blind eye to the firing of rockets by Iranian backed groups like Islamic Jihad, before November 4th.
That you think it is wrong for Israel to have a military plan for going back in to Gaza betrays what most Israelis would see as a naive understanding of the reasons we were in Gaza before 2005. Most opponents of the 2005 withdrawal precisely feared the sort of rocket attacks we are seeing now. When the army was in Gaza permanently, Israel's southern population did not have to worry about rocket attacks. But the Arabs (and you) were angry, and so Israel left Gaza in the hope that if the settlements were really the cause of their anger, removing them would solve the problem. Unfortunately, the lack of authority in Gaza meant Israel could not hold anyone accountable for the rocket attacks that started to increase in frequency after the withdrawal in 2005. That changed when Hamas was elected and accountable for security, and when they allowed the attacks to continue Israel enforced a blockade .
No rockets, no blockade, no invasion. Blame Hamas.
Zak
Bassam,
You never got back to me on my last response to you. It's understandable - I'd also rather be hanging out with TV stars....
The images of children holding on to dead parents chill me to the bone. Innocent civilians killed by our boys trouble me - no humane person can remain unmoved by those images.
And yet, we support the war because we fear the rockets. We continue to point our fingers at the murderous rockets because we see our actions as purely defensive: As grusome as they are, we don't see a choice here.
This is the bitter truth.
Zak
“The word "terrorist" has moral implications that are unavoidable. Once you accept Hamas are terrorists, you must also accept that they can be fought with force. You call them "militants who aim to scare Israelis". By any definition - that is terrorism.”
OK. Hamas is a terrorist group that needs to be stopped by force. But ‘force’ should not include killing the civilians and punishing them along with the terrorists.
“In everything I have written I have not said I do not feel pain for what is happening to Palestinian children.”
Yes, but you did not mention you feel bad for the civilians until you posted your last statement.
“You call it "injustice" but is it not injustice to use residential neighborhoods to fire missiles from? That is injustice in my eyes.”
Firing rockets from civilian neighborhoods IS injustice but does that mean bombarding the neighborhoods with its innocent people justice?
“Heck, why look at the Jews, just look at what Moslems do to each other! Is that not injustice? What about all the Christians who are persecuted in your country? Where is your outrage Bassam?”
If you have been following my blog regularly, you would find where my outrage is.
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing or children, but we can't forgive the Arabs for making us kill their children".
So, you should kill the Arab children because the Arabs let you do that? What kind of logic is this?
“I don't think I can forgive Hamas for using human shields.”
You SHOULD NOT forgive them, but not by killing the innocent. The quote above and what you said does not prevent the killing. It actually encourages it to happen. So where are the “human rights” slogans Israel pretends it follows?
I told Avram in a private conversation that if Israel wanted to fight a real war based on preventing civilians deaths, it should have let them leave Gaza and fight Hamas face to face like the Americans did during the Fallujah Battle. But Israel did not do that I don’t have any idea why it did, unless it really wanted to punish the civilians for choosing Hamas in the elections.
Re the spam stuff, I’m not really surprised. This is actually adapted by the Americans as propaganda for their war in Iraq. There are tons of Web sites and blogs where conservatives storm Iraqi blogs and Web sites like mine and attack the blogger or try to brainwash his/her readers with some information they favor instead of focusing on the reality. It’s a war and in wars propaganda is a tool both sides use to promote their intentions.
“You never got back to me on my last response to you. It's understandable - I'd also rather be hanging out with TV stars....”
I don’t want to interpret this statement as a mockery. Last night was not about ‘hanging out with TV stars.” It was about attending a play about a serious issue in America’s war in Iraq that is very related to how I lived my life back home. The other thing was meeting with celebrities who actually know so much more than most of the “Iraq expert” at the White House or the U.S. Capitol. They were there to listen to us, Iraqis and to discuss the situation. It was my role to be there to talk about my country and educate people about the situation rather than mere ‘hanging out.”
But since you asked, I had to do a lot of work today that I barely had the time to moderate the comments.
“As grusome as they are, we don't see a choice here.”
You had the choice of asking the innocent civilians to leave the city and fight Hamas face to face. I would have supported that if it had happened. But, it hadn’t.
"OK. Hamas is a terrorist group that needs to be stopped by force. But ‘force’ should not include killing the civilians and punishing them along with the terrorists."
Bassam remember PLO it too was seen as a terror group. Then suddenly it was no longer, democratic leaders from all over the world and Israel started talking and working with them. So what is needed is talks and dialogue.
Honeslty I haven't seen any indication that any Palestinian group working thru politics for the rights of the Palestinian people and their right to exist, have a country of their own with their right to defend themselves would be seen by Israel as okay. Israel as USA and many EU countries need corrupted leaders who put their own greed and foreign countries needs before their peoples rights and needs.
A few years ago Fatah members were seen just as a group of terrorists. Now Israel and many others can't stop supporting and talking to them them.
Bassam,
The BBC reported on efforts to warn Gazans about staying away from areas used by Hamas. The Israeli press did too: Efforts included telephone calls to homes to give warnings to leave and dropping leaflets in areas warning the same. They are not pleasant, but the alternative is worse. Many Gazans fled their homes and have avoided the fighting. Death is not something that should be spoken of lightly, but I think the truth is that the death toll would be higher if it weren’t for these warnings.
There have been disasters, like the UN school that got hit by mortars that missed their target by 30 meters, and also allegations of some warnings that were non-specific in terms of saying where to avoid, so didn’t really help civilians, but I don’t think it can be said that Israel has not tried to avoid loss of civilian life. Suggestions that the IDF targeted civilians are speculative and hard to back up. From a more cynical perspective, one could also point out that it is in Israel’s best interest to minimize civilian casualties, as they inflame public opinion against its war efforts and increase diplomatic pressure for an immediate withdrawal closer to Hamas’ terms than Israel would like.
Your idea of allowing the civilians to leave sounds like a good one, but I think this is what the leaflets and phone calls aim to do.
With respect to hanging out with TV stars – it was meant as a compliment.
Zak
Bassam remember PLO it too was seen as a terror group. Then suddenly it was no longer, democratic leaders from all over the world and Israel started talking and working with them. So what is needed is talks and dialogue.
thank you nadia for once again inserting some additional sanity into the conversation.
And yet, we support the war because we fear the rockets. We continue to point our fingers at the murderous rockets because we see our actions as purely defensive: As grusome as they are, we don't see a choice here.
This is the bitter truth.
no it is not, it is only the bitter truth of the infowar campaign. the bitter truth is any other explanation for israels actions puts the idf in the uncomfortable position of breaking the oath of the Purity of arms
"Purity of Arms" (Morality in Warfare) - The soldier shall make use of his weaponry and power only for the fulfillment of the mission and solely to the extent required; he will maintain his humanity even in combat. The soldier shall not employ his weaponry and power in order to harm non-combatants or prisoners of war, and shall do all he can to avoid harming their lives, body, honor and property.
as Bassam points out this has clearly been broken for what attempt have been made to assure "all he can to avoid harming their lives"? obviously evacuating citizens from the enclosed war zone which is walled in would of course prevent danger to civilians!
meanwhile how can anyone claim all avenues to peace have been exhausted when israel has not been willing to accept the democratically elected representatives of the palestinian people as a viable? you work with the conditions you are presented with, you do not reject democracy because you don't like the outcome.
zak Although there were rocket attacks from Hamas after Israel bombed tunnels that could be used for kidnapping soldiers
you forgot the little part about the idf killing people on nov 4th. had the idf's mission truly been to remove a tunnel and not break the ceasefire, they could have signaled their intent and informed their misssion they were going to come into gaza and blow up the alleged tunnel. they did not do that. they killed people. why 'extend' a ceasefire that supposedly includes one side being able to murder at will. furthermore the conditions in gaza, the blockaid of food medicine is appauling. it is a prison.
The soldier shall make use of his weaponry and power only for the fulfillment of the mission
if ending the rocket fire was truly the fulfillment of the mission, all evidence from the graphs indicates the ceasefire was working. what started it up again was the invasion of 'operation alleged imminent kidnapping'. maybe if the idf wanted to attack the problem head on they could have condemned their own actions and apologized to their citizens for putting them at risk by ending the ceasefire.
CSM
Mr. Garlasco, a senior military analyst for New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW), says that the way Israel is using the incendiary device is illegal. White phosphorus shells contain more than 100 felt filaments that ignite upon contact with the atmosphere, drift to earth, and burn intensely for at least 10 to 12 minutes.
The usage of white phosphorus is not illegal under international law if it's used in military operations as a smoke screen to cover troop movements or against bunkers, armored vehicles, and ammunition dumps. But its use is forbidden against people – civilians and soldiers alike – under nearly all military codes and laws.
"The use of white phosphorus is banned as a weapon that causes 'unnecessary suffering,' " says Mark Ellis, director of the International Bar Association in London. "It isn't to be used in civilian areas, or indeed against people since it creates horrible damage to the human body, and unnecessarily so."
Israel, which has been charged with using white phosphorus in Lebanon, says it is not using white phosphorus in its war against Hamas in Gaza, now in its 18th day.
"The IDF [Israeli Defense Forces] acts only in accordance with what is permitted by international law and does not use white phosphorus," IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi told Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday in response to a query.
But Garlasco says that phosphorus is clearly being used in the Jabaliya refugee camp, one of the most crowded areas in Gaza.
"I can see them; we are very certain, whatever the Israeli Defense Forces may say, that white phosphorus is being used. It was used by Israel in Lebanon in 2006, but not until the population fled. In Gaza, the population can't flee."
they are trapped. israel knows they are trapped. they are forbidding outside witnesses. they are expecting us to believe everything they say and have even been outted trying to pass off a photo from past years to somehow back up their assertion of militants firing from the school. they are on record as all using one organized voice, and we are supposed to believe this voice is telling the truth. because it says things like: 'This is the bitter truth.'
the bitter truth is it is against not only humanitarian international law to carry out this offense, israel is also walking a very thin line trying to not go against their own religious tenents. what is it that accomodates this religious laws? the pretense of it being 'defense'. this is not defense. that is absurd.
re what is and is not a terrorism or terrorist, for the slaughter in gaza is surely horrific
On Torah, Zionism and Peace
We want a religious Zionism that will sound the voice of Torah which teaches that even the enemy, even the most wicked enemy, is not some “two-legged beast,”8 a religious Zionism that will have the strength to stand up to officials and rulers, and even to the Prime Minister himself, and protest against demonizing the enemy;
one cannot cleanse ones actions by simply asserting ones intentions are moral when one actions are clearly not. while you demonize thru identification , the actions of your professed enemies are not, nor have they even been, worse then you own. the actions of israel is that of a rouge state breaking all international law. yet the insistence of the noise machine to label this clear rejection of israels actions as 'anti semetic', once again the demonization of those who dare to criticize this immortality and violence leaves no doubt israel cannot even hear or listen for they do not respect us. they do not hear us. they do not reason with us, for we are labeled 'racist', 'hate filled', terrorist'.
are we to ignore the evidence of actions taken and instead only listen to claims of who is or is not moral instead of what is or is not moral?
gathering (thru force) 100 members of one family into a building and them bombing the building is a 'mistake', is a casualty of war? how many other of these incidents will occur? have occurred? are we to believe if these 'accidents' continue israel will report them? are we to believe the prevention of outside observers is not to silence reality, to hide the truth? because you say so? because you claim it is for the safety of anyone? for if you know there will be danger to civilians, evacuate them!
"I think this is what the leaflets and phone calls aim to do."
Too late. They did it after they started the war and besieged the innocent.
Look at what has happened. Look at the massacre. You tell me leaflets and phone calls? Look at how their bodies are drilled with Israeli bullets:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gaza+children&search_type=&aq=f
انا لله وانا اليه راجعون
"They did it after they started the war and besieged the innocent."
Bassam, with respect: The number of civilian casualties increased dramatically after the war began. Israel's opening rounds, which caught hamas by surprise, hit a very high proportion of Hamas targets accurately.
So I still believe that dropping leaflets and making phonecalls after the war started is not too late.
As for the link you posted - did you check it out? It's awful - there are pictures of palestinian children holding grenades! I am horrified by your willingness to overlook this! They are playing music while they show a child holding a grenada and then children casualties. Come on man, I know this is not what you stand for.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yjUxHN5YkSU
Finally, I did not understand the Arabic you posted at the end pof the comment, can you translate it please?
Zak
Useful idiot. No polite way to say it, but you and people like you are the reason peace will never come and why innocents are killed. Dead babies sell and no one makes and sells dead babies like Muslim fundamentalists. You and those like you are their target consumers.
B Will Derd,
Thanks God these were real images that were not "photoshopped" by anyone.
Muslims are showing the world what has really happened. And when it comes contrary to what you prefer to see, you get angry and unable to even discuss it in a civilized way like the people commenting on this thread. I posted your comment to show them how the father of the American hero behaves when he faces something he disagrees with.
Go behave yourself, or maybe it's too late for someone your age who most probably passed this hatred to his children.
Zak, I apologize for posting the wrong link. I meant to post this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lENAs9l-7g
By mistake I posted the link of the search results.
The Arabic is a prayer we say when we see people die. It translates: "To God we belong and to whom we return."
"To God we belong and to whom we return."
that reminds me of the book "Correli's Mandolin" by Louis Des Bernies: "We all owe a death to nature".
Clearly with innocents, and in children especially, this is a premature unfulfilled tragedy of an ending.
I will check out the link and share my feelings with you. But I was shocked to see a child holding a grenade in the original link, and then more pictures of their injuries with what seemed to be upbeat music in the background. That seemed to confirm the attiude that most Israelis have that certain powerful elements in the Palestinian-Israel conflict really do encourage children to be martyred.
Zak
Bassam,
These awful pictures appeared on Israeli TV. No father can bear to look at them without asking himself if this war was necessary.
I don't know if you understood the Hebrew (and it is always closer to the soul when you hear something in your own language), but he was asking Barak what this child did wrong? He wasn't just asking Barak, he was also asking me.
Yes, these were my bullets.
But I ask Hamas - why did you bring this war on your people? This invasion would not be possible were you not firing and allowing the firing of rockets at our Southern cities. That is the reason for our military action.
I also ask Hamas - do these pictures trouble you?
Humanity resonates in your writing - and I am sorry if my anger was louder than my grief at the death of Palestinian children. I grieve at these pictures, though it may be hard for you to accept that.
I wanted to share an article with you and your readers. It is an open letter by one of Israel's most prominent authors A. B. Yehoshuah, to Gideon Levy - perhaps Israel's most voiceferous opponent of the Gaza invasion.
If you can, I'd be grateful if you wait till you have to to read it in full - because it really captures how many of us feel. I would dare to say how the vast majority of us feel.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055977.html
I hope this is a weekend that will see a workable cease-fire.
Zak
This invasion would not be possible were you not firing and allowing the firing of rockets at our Southern cities.
except it was quite possible for israel to carry out its planned attack on lebanon, this wasn't because of rockets being fired. it is possible for israel to kill whenever it wants, so do not lie to yourself. all evidence from the lull is that hamas had not fired any rockets during that time, so do not pretend what is the best way to stop the rockets when you have a concentration camp in gaza. i think you know quite well.
zak, i ran into an article today addressing israel's options wrt ending the rocket attacks i thought might interest you.
The Gaza offensive has succeeded in punishing the Palestinians but not in making Israel more secure.
By John J. Mearsheimer
The official Israeli position blames Hamas for undermining the ceasefire. This view is widely accepted in the United States, but it is not true. Israeli leaders disliked the ceasefire from the start, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the IDF to begin preparing for the present war while the ceasefire was being negotiated in June 2008. Furthermore, Dan Gillerman, Israel’s former ambassador to the UN, reports that Jerusalem began to prepare the propaganda campaign to sell the present war months before the conflict began. For its part, Hamas drastically reduced the number of missile attacks during the first five months of the ceasefire. A total of two rockets were fired into Israel during September and October, none by Hamas.
How did Israel behave during this same period? It continued arresting and assassinating Palestinians on the West Bank, and it continued the deadly blockade that was slowly strangling Gaza. Then on Nov. 4, as Americans voted for a new president, Israel attacked a tunnel inside Gaza and killed six Palestinians. It was the first major violation of the ceasefire, and the Palestinians—who had been “careful to maintain the ceasefire,” according to Israel’s Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center—responded by resuming rocket attacks. The calm that had prevailed since June vanished as Israel ratcheted up the blockade and its attacks into Gaza and the Palestinians hurled more rockets at Israel. It is worth noting that not a single Israeli was killed by Palestinian missiles between Nov. 4 and the launching of the war on Dec. 27.
As the violence increased, Hamas made clear that it had no interest in extending the ceasefire beyond Dec. 19, which is hardly surprising, since it had not worked as intended. In mid-December, however, Hamas informed Israel that it was still willing to negotiate a long-term ceasefire if it included an end to the arrests and assassinations as well as the lifting of the blockade. But the Israelis, having used the ceasefire to prepare for war against Hamas, rejected this overture. The bombing of Gaza commenced eight days after the failed ceasefire formally ended.
If Israel wanted to stop missile attacks from Gaza, it could have done so by arranging a long-term ceasefire with Hamas. And if Israel were genuinely interested in creating a viable Palestinian state, it could have worked with the national unity government to implement a meaningful ceasefire and change Hamas’s thinking about a two-state solution. But Israel has a different agenda: it is determined to employ the Iron Wall strategy to get the Palestinians in Gaza to accept their fate as hapless subjects of a Greater Israel.
i recommend the whole thing at the link.
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