As my fingers were flipping through today’s papers, my eyes were craned to the pictures the articles embraced. The photo of the man grieving in front of his burned book store summarized the whole article. I looked into his eyes. They were as red as the blood flowing in
I read the caption and I wish I didn’t. “Mohammed Salman grieves at the site of a book market in Baghdad where a car bomb killed his brother and 37 other people March 5,” it read. Yes, it was the last place to die in a dying city which once was the castle of the Arabian Nights. I kept looking and wondered how many people like this man are going through the same feeling.
“After 4 years of war, survey finds a nation fragmented by fear,” USA Today’s headline read. Fear. Have you ever experienced it? It’s scary. It makes your heart wants to jump out of its place. It makes all your senses work at once. Your ears hears every drop of water in the sink even though it’s far away. Your eyes become as sharp as Superman’s. You can see the tiniest bug standing on the wall. Your arms shape themselves in a way that they can help you defend yourself if danger comes closer. Your legs warm up as if they start running. Your nose smells danger. Your mouth watches the words going out of it and your tongue pushes the saliva back to your throat. At the end, these senses either help you survive or let you die. But you can train them. Seriously. However, in
When the bombs started falling four years ago, all my senses were functioning. I even felt the vibration of the floor shaken by bombs. How could I forget that feeling? It shook my mother and let her fall into tears of fear. All her senses were working at that day. Maybe more than mine and my sister’s. She was listening to every bomb, every artillery shell, every bullet. The sound of sirens freaked her out more than the sound of the bombs. It freaked me out too. Until this moment, I feel the contractions in my heart when I hear it. Yes, I still hear it. You may be shocked but they are the same sirens American fire stations use when there is emergency. In my first week here, I heard this sound when I was in my friend’s house. Unconsciously, my heart beat so fast that it reminded me with every single bomb and siren I heard in
As I opened my eyes this morning, I kept thinking as I was still on bed. I needed to get up to get ready to work but couldn’t but remember how things changed in four years. Upside down, all I could describe. Four years, one, two, three, four, I counted. Wow! Four years of my life. I didn’t feel them. They ran so quickly. I recalled the end of my college senior year, my job, my father return from
Although I lost a lot, but I gained a lot too. Strength, will to live, experience, courage, and feelings for others are things I gained. Above all, I gained a precious thing, loyalty and more love to my country.
Today marks the fourth anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion to
*Some Iraqi bloggers inside and outside
Iraqi Bloggers inside and outside
Omar, author of “24 Steps to Liberty”
What was your opinion when the
I was for it. That was the only way for us to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his government.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Frustrated.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
It doesn’t matter now. It is in the past and we cannot achieve anything by blaming anyone. What we need to do now is to stop whining and start doing something about it.
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
Send the government home and bring Iyad Allawi to power again. Announce a real emergency status in the country. Stop promising Shiites and Kurds the biggest shares in the cake and stop kissing the Sunnis ass to play a role in a government that is not capable of doing anything in the first place. Appeal to the real and influential tribal leaders and bribe them to help in controlling the mob. Execute terrorists [under any labels, like insurgents or militias] and in public, that should include those who are making millions by just allowing foreign fighters to cross into
Do you think the
My plan doesn’t include any foreigners. But we still need the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
Yes. It was totally worth it. Why? Because I am saying all this without fearing any government or officials in
A&EIraqi, author of “I Miss Iraq”
What was your opinion when the
“
I remember these few weeks before the invasion, I was living in
Be able to speak and travel, able to live a respectable life, to have a dish satellite at home, and to be able to see what’s is going on in the world were the simple hopes of most of the Iraqis.
My opinion of the situation at that”glorious” time was different, I was worried about my country and its future, I was thinking about the “civil war”
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Nowadays, Iraqi people are living in a turmoil, more than half a million of my people have been killed, thousands of Iraqi families left their houses under threat, two million Iraqis have left the country to live somewhere else since 2003, Iraqi universities are going to be closed because of the lack of the staff and the loss of security .Militias are controlling the streets and the sectarian mentality is ruling our life. Hundreds of people are being kidnapped to be tortured and killed; everyday tens of corpses are thrown into the streets.
These are the “American achievements” in this short period of time.
They have liberated nobody, but destroyed everything; the” oasis of democracy” turned out to be “bloody swamp”.
Unfortunately, instead of being the beacon of democracy, my country has become the beacon of horror
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Still, about the violence, I blame the .U.S forces for not taking the correct actions from the beginning , second I blame sectarianism which motivate violence.
Do you think the
I don't dare to wish a withdrawal of the invaders as I think it'll get worse if they leave.
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
About the war, no war is worthy. This question is hard to be answered. We can't deny that for a while people were happy and still they can't accept going back to Saddam's days, yet they wish living their previous secure days.
Chikitita, author of “first words, first walk, first.... in Iraq”
What was your opinion when the
Basically, at the time I stopped listening to the radio. But I used to take it with salt when radio freaks used to tell me that unlike the
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Of course it has; it turned out George Bush was not bluffing.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
1) Americans, for they could have stopped the chaos.
2) Iraqi politicians, whose only impetus was revenge and more revenge.
3)
4) Clergy, Sunni and Shia, who helped fuel the violence instead of douse it.
5) Media outlets, local and Arab for same reason of 4.
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
It is now up to the Iraqis to put their differences aside and stop abusing religion that unfortunately disrupted their unity. Politicians must try to act like grown ups and stop running for mummy,
Do you think the
They should withdraw their troops someday but not NOW. It's stupid to do this. Iraqi security forces cannot be trusted to this day and I believe militias might be on Sabbath but they could get back to business any minute.
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
The fact that Saddam was toppled is fine, but the chaos that ensued has never ceased to stir ambivalence within me.
Marshmallow, author of “It’s All About Our Life”
What was your opinion when the
My opinion was like any other person, I believed in that mythical story of mass destruction weapons and thought it was the time to destroy these fatal weapons and get rid of the whole dictatorship regime.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Yes, after the 2nd year of war, a gloomy impression got over my opinion and thoughts, HOPE FADED AWAY!
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
I blame the Bush Administration and the fallacy ideas and plans they had made about and in
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
It is a hard question can't find any answer for it at the moment, every one got corrupted with some issues.
Do you think the
No, absolutely not at the moment...their presence are kind of helping us to keep violence down, how come if they leave and our military still unstable?
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
It could be worth it if and only if US politicians and worldly-wise men were as professional as
“Morbid Smile” [update]
What was your opinion when the
When the war took place in 2003, I didn’t know what to think or how to form my opinion about the whole thing. Part of me was in total denial of the idea that another war was about to begin. And even when we had all the preparations and were waiting for the first air raid I couldn’t believe that it actually happened.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Though I wanted Saddam to go like most of the people in
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
As for whom to blame for the insecurity in Iraq, I believe that all who participated in the war and its consequences are to blame, starting from Saddam and his dictatorship which was the main reason for the war (at least in my opinion), the American administration for having a war as a best solution for everything rather than negotiations, and the current Iraqi government for failing in its role in prevailing peace and for not controlling the situation which made it easy for terrorists to get into the country.
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
What I think should be done is to finish what has already started. They had plans for the war, but nothing for after that! That's just ain't right and something should be done about it or the country will just vanish. Unless that's what they want!
Do you think the
I don’t think that the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
And after all, I don’t believe that the war was worth it at all, nothing good has happened to make the war worthwhile, it only devastated the country and killed its people.
What was your opinion when the
History began in
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Nope.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
The
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
The
Do you think the
Yes. All the talk that a
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
Yes, it was worth it because it has brought a world power to its knees, it has shown that talk of democracy is really talk of how to plunder and pillage, it has shown the world the ineptitude of the US military, the ignorance of the American electorate, the corruption in the DOD, CIA, State Department and so on. It has shown that a few hundred patriotic fighters in sandals and robes can roll back the decay of a power-hungry zealotry. Madeline Albright has said the war was the greatest blunder in
Zeyad, author of “Healing Iraq” [update]
What was your opinion when the
I was supportive of the war. I was living a meaningless life of despair under Saddam's regime and I naiively believed that the
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
My opinion started gradually changing not long after the invasion. It was a combination of reasons: The U.S. mishandling of the war, the destruction and the looting, the vengeful steps taken against a large portion of the population by both the U.S. and returning exiles, the growing insurgency, the empowerment of Islamic fundamentalists, the establishment of a political system based on sectarian and ethnic quotas, building security forces that are more loyal to sectarian warlords than the state, the sectarian violence, the huge toll on Iraqi lives, the massive and underreported refugee crisis, the displacement and breakup of families, the division of once harmonious communities, the mistrust between Iraqis, etc.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
It is very popular these days to blame the victim, but I believe that everyone shares some of the blame. The
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
1- The
2- An unconditional amnesty should be offered for all militant groups and militias in the country. An effective campaign to completely disarm the population should follow immediately. Militias and paramilitary forces, including the small private militias of politicians and religious leaders, should be disbanded. No exceptions. No "red lines." No excuses.
3- Former Ba'athists, bureaucrats, and military officers should be pardoned and brought back into the fold as part of a country-wide national reconciliation effort. The Iraqi security forces that the
4- Then, schedule a new date for parliamentary elections with direct international supervision. No sectarian or ethnic slates should be allowed. No clerics should be allowed to give spiritual "blessings" for any candidates or lists. A new constitution should be written after that. Postpone all contentious issues until after that. No sneaky U.S.-sponsored privatization and oil laws should be passed until that period.
5- The
Do you think the
The
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
It will not be readily obvious if the war was worth it or not. The toll in lives has been enormous so far. Future generations will be scarred forever as a result of this war, and they are the ones who are supposed to make a change for the better.
American Bloggers
What was your opinion when the
Well, when the
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
My opinion about the war has not changed. It was the wrong way to help
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Well, first of course the insecurity was started by the coalition, which attacked
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
I think the only things that can be done to quell the violence are to build a true reconciliation process. It seems that so far, no one has really pushed the reconciliation process in a real way, there are too many other options for Iraqis besides peaceful coexistence. There are the US troops to make them play nice,[ http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2007/02/19/apaches-over-baghdad/ ] there are the guns for them to kill the people they don't like,[ http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2007/03/05/fps-another-iraqi-militia/ ] there is Allah to tell them they are martyrs if they die for their beliefs.[ http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2006/11/20/a-mother-tells-a-martyrs-story/ ] Once Iraqis start to see each other again, and once the international community makes a dedicated, honest, and true attempt to support them in reconciling, I believe this will begin the long process of rebuilding Iraq and ending the violence. Random violence no doubt continue for a long time, unfortunately [ http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2007/01/08/everyones-a-target/]
Do you think the
I think the proper question is, what are the alternatives, to ensure security and protection for most if not all Iraqis? The other proper question is, can any of these alternatives be achieved so long as the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
Well, if I am to say whether it was worth it to myself, or to the American people, or to humanity as a whole, I have to say I doubt it. It’s clear that the
David, author of “Constructive Creativity”
What was your opinion when the
I had mixed feelings. I felt certain that Saddam and his sons were profoundly evil people. I knew that Saddam had killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, gassed to death thousands of Kurds, and brutally suppressed the Shia in southern
However, I did not think that Saddam would be stupid enough to use them against Americans. I listened to the U.N. inspectors who were saying that they were making progress in
threat to any other country. Also, I was wondering about
After the bombs of "shock and awe" began to fall on
civil war. I never imagined, that
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
After four years, I certainly have a much different perspective. The lies and manipulations of the Bush administration, that enabled their rush to war in
though, in the past three years I have become friends with a number of Iraqi bloggers who have really opened my eyes to the true costs of this war for the Iraqi people.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Ultimately, Bush is responsible, but I have always perceived him as little more than a puppet. Cheney has been more or less the power behind the throne from the start of the Bush Presidency, so a lot of the blame must rest squarely on his shoulders. The absolute incompetence of Rumsfeld, who thought he could have a war on the cheap, under-manned and under-funded, is blatantly obvious now. The abject failure of the administration to produce any sort of plan to keep the peace after their "Mission Accomplished" celebration, led first to the looting of Baghdad, next to the rise of the insurgency, and finally to the horrific sectarian violence prevalent today. The biggest single mistake was probably the disbanding of the Iraqi police and military forces. No doubt some were hard core Saddamists, but I think that most of them were just trying to support their families. I certainly don't think that all the violence and death of the past four years could have been prevented, but I do think it could have been dramatically reduced with better planning and competent leadership.
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
I strongly believe that any potential solution to the violence must come through dialog among the Iraqi people themselves. I also think that
discussions. These countries all have interests in
Do you think the
I think the immediate withdrawal of all
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
No, absolutely not! The war has cost the lives of at least half a million Iraqi people. How many more have been severely injured or maimed for life? How many people have been psychologically scarred by the loss of loved ones, by the loss of their homes, by the loss of their sense of security, or by the loss of their livelihoods? What about the women of
been killed.
“Electronic Iraq” [update]
- What was your opinion when the
For years prior to the invasion, I had been active in organizing to end the economic sanctions against
The model of
Did I want to see Saddam Hussein gone? Of course. I wanted to visit my Iraqi friends in their homes without drawing the attention of the secret police. I wanted to see my professor friends get jobs again and my artist friends create whatever they wanted and thrive and I wanted to see my engineer friends back doing what they loved: building
But, as an American friend put it at the time:
- It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
My opinion that
- Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Just as the insecurity in
Beyond the responsibility the
I would rather see the question reframed: who can we look to for a new model of action that seeks to build trust and unity. My answer? We should support any Iraqi individuals or organizations taking risks to forge creative and constructive models. This is surely happening in
- Do you think the
I think the withdrawal question is important. But I worry that the "should we stay or should we go" debate in the
We have given
These are the questions we need to be wrestling with.
Mariestaad, author of “Make a Desert and Call It Peace”
What was your opinion when the
I knew this was a huge, huge mistake, and I also realized that the administration that I suspected had been gunning for
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
No, I'm just profoundly depressed.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Overall—the
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
This is such a difficult problem with no easy answers. Anyone who says "oh, a surge!" or whatever, obviously needs 100 whacks from a hammer rather than just one to learn this lesson. It will take negotiations with surrounding countries, negotiations within the competing factions within
Do you think the
It doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what the Iraqi people think. It's their country. Something everyone, on both sides of this argument, seems to have forgotten. And I mean the Iraqi people, not their "government" hiding out in the Green Zone. I think there should be a referendum on whether the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
Again, I know what I feel (no, it was not), but how I feel doesn't matter. I'm not the one who is paying for this war in blood. I think the only people who are qualified, and morally in the right, to answer this are the Iraqi people. Outside of the Kurds, I believe the answer is probably "no" from most Iraqis too (although I don't presume to speak for them). There is a saying that "the devil you know is better than the one you don't know." Well, we certainly were the unknown "devil" in the sense that we, the
What was your opinion when the
I was not in favor of the invasion to begin with, but I must admit to not being against the invasion. I was of the opinion that the decision has been made, we are going to war so you may as well pray for success and hopefully it will be over fast and to everyone’s benefit, Iraq and the United States, the latter being my country.
I also have memories of heated discussions with people concerning the invasion, but most people I know simply hate President Bush and cannot have an intelligent argument unless it has to do with
I HONESTLY believed that my country would not go invade another country, topple its government and install another without a well thought out plan. I mean, we have been dealing with this country since the first Gulf War. Surely we know the lay of the land, the major players. Why didn’t I notice that there was pretty much one voice for
I spent too much time on the fence, and my balls got busted.
Before the Gulf War of 1991, the U.S. Congress at least had an honest debate about going to war. At that point we were only 16 years removed from the ignominious retreat from
The strangest part is that back then in 91 it seemed more real, as if it were affecting me personally. In 2002/03 they tried selling the
I am ashamed of myself. I never considered just exactly what it means to unleash the Dogs War.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
Yes. My opinion has changed with respect to the
I can remember having a conversation about the war and its aftermath. I remember saying they will bring every able bodied Military Policeman, as well as International Police, the kind that are trained go in to post conflict areas and help keep the peace. How can I support people who didn’t even have that sense of forethought, when a slacking kid like me did? How can I support and have confidence in the very same people that caused this out of control situation?
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
I put the blame squarely on the
Therefore, if there were peace and stability the
Unfortunately the opposite conditions exist in
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
I do not personally know any people from
Until the people have confidence in the government to provide security the violence will continue. And what level of security would be acceptable to the Iraqi’s I have no idea. I know if it were my country I would want 0 car bombs and no drill hole corpses any more. I would want to be able to send my children to school and know that the cops on the street will make sure the street is safe enough for them to walk alone without fear of a stray ball bearing severing her artery because some young man feels so strongly in his position to strap a vest of plastic explosives lined with ball bearings and set it off at the entrance to a university. Why should anyone expect any less than that?
The people must also feel that their government of Iraqi’s is in control of their country, not a foreign ignorant occupier.
Do you think the
No, I do not think the
Again, this is difficult for me to make recommendations as I am so far removed from the situation, and we have the President to thank for this as he never asked anything of the American people. Wait, he asked loyal republicans who never had a passport to go to
But I digress. Is the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
No. All for one man? That guy in the rat hole who needed his teeth brushed? That guy? All those dead people for THAT GUY? An orgy of death and destruction on a scale rarely seen. As an American I am complicit and feel ashamed at what we did to the peace loving people of
RhusLancia, contributor in “Iraqi Bloggers Central”
What was your opinion when the
I was against the invasion up until it happened. I felt that Saddam's time was up, but I was hoping for a diplomatic solution to save the day, or that he would take the exile deal that was offered to him. My
first post at IBC (http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com/2006/12/my-war.html), which was less than four months ago, gives a little more information on the how and why of my opinion if anybody is interested.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has youropinion changed since then? Why?
Yes, I'd say it has. I was much more "on the fence" about
stable and prosperous. I only see that happening if the US & Iraqi gov't side "wins" though, which is the side I've taken.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
Everyone. I blame Saddam for so brutalizing Iraqis that they have deep-rooted insecurities that could take years to shed. I blame the Baathists for preferring to burn
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
In general terms, I think the Iraqis need to get behind their government. I know the government has been disappointing to most, but for now that is what
matter where you stand politically, you can find reasons to be disappointed in our government. Still, Americans are not killing each other over political differences or disappointment. Some might like to,
but nobody is.
I have two ideas for getting Iraqis behind their government. The first I've discussed in your comments, but I think the second may be new.
First, what I call the RhusLancia Plan for Practice Makes Perfect Democracy (RLPfPMPD). Basically, hold new elections as early as the end of this year and hold elections every two years for a period of time (a decade, for example) and then revert to a four year cycle. The gist of this plan is to let Iraqis choose a new government that is more representative of their hopes and priorities. Now that Iraqis have had
some time to see the performance of the parties and politicians they can make more informed choices about who they want to elect. Holding elections every two years for a time would allow greater accountability of the politicians and let them and the electorate mature more quickly, in my opinion. Here are two important details: a) Maliki should call the election before any coup or no-confidence vote happens. He should announce it as a voluntary, positive way to move
the Iraqis were about them? Vote, dip finger, smile, repeat.
Second, I don't have a name for this plan (suggestions, anyone?), but it has to do with getting the Iraqis behind their government at our expense. No, I don't mean with violence or bribes! I mean that the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds is pretty much lost. Many of the Iraqi bloggers I know of have turned against the US-led invasion (if they were "for" it to begin with) and most Iraqi polls want us out or dead. There seems to be an alarming number of Iraqis who can forgive or ignore horrific violence from their countrymen and jihadi allies as long as the
not too long ago had a scene with a
So what to do? Advance governance and security by the current government as a viable alternative for Iraqis (i.e. instead of insurgents, militias, or gangs). For example, al-Sadr recently called on his supporters to resist
great. They could have thousands of people every day protesting peacefully in
Yes, a similar thing was tried after Fallujah I with the disastrous "Fallujah Brigade", but maybe
We also need the Iraqi parliament to vote us in our out, which is somewhat related.
Getting behind the Iraqi government could finally allow
Do you think the
No. I believe
to stay for both national security and moral reasons.
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
I don't know, it depends on how it turns out. If we leave too soon and
“The Sam and BeckyBoo Show” summed up his/her opinion here.
What was your opinion when the
I was for it regardless of WMD and said so publicly. Saddam was an evil man and removing him from power was a good thing.
It has been four years since the invasion. Has your opinion changed since then? Why?
No. I was for the war then, and I am for the war now. Many people say Iraqis are not ready for democracy, or their society is too violent and we should have expected things to turn out the way they have. I believe Iraqis are like Americans and only want to live in peace and safety and have a hope for the future for their children. I believe they deserve this as much as anyone. I think war is always bloody and things nearly always get worse before they get better.
Whom do you blame for the insecurity in
There is plenty of blame to go around but the primary blame must lay with the insurgents, terrorists, militias and criminals who are benefiting from the violence. Iraqi politicians who are putting their partisan and sectarian interests ahead of their country, bad decisions by US commanders, and interference from Iran and Syria and the shameful failure of the rest of the free world to lift a finger to help Iraq has also contributed to the current state of affairs.
What do you think should be done to quell the violence there?
Patience, time and the will to persevere and win. Without it
Do you think the
No I do not. Either the
Do you think the war was worth it? Why?
Yes. Fighting for freedom is always worth it. Saddam is removed from power; he and his sons are dead. Punished for their crimes and will never kill or torture anyone else again. Al-Zarqawi is dead as are thousands more like him and that is a good thing.
65 Comments:
i very much liked the answers of "truth about iraq".
wow, thank you so much for this.
there were segments of almost everyones' answers that totally resonated w/me. for every question there was at least on blogger who answered how i would have, and new information i found very valuable in my assessment.
finally, thank you BT for your description of fear. it is exactly how it is, w/every part of your being alive w/awareness of threat.
ultimately i think this is what drws me into reading iraqi bloggers. there is a constant nerve wracking presence of turmoil and fear that runs thru me as a result of this war yet i am so far removed, and at the same time know it is happening in my name, w/my country. i find some kind of odd comfort gravitating towards those whom not only share my neurosis but who undoubtably feel it in a much stronger and more personal way. in this way, i am not alone and do not burden my neighbors,friends and family w/this constant pressure that i fear they block out except for times of conscious because we all feel there is nothing we can really do.
i bow down to all iraqi bloggers for sharing your experience w/us, the invader who has wrought this huge mistake on your reality.
also, i do not blame anyone for having hope and belief in the american dream, or the idea that america would come to the rescue of iraq, but unfortunately i never believed we were going to bring this peac to iraq. why? not because i don't believe in america, but because i knew and know, that the criminals running our country do not represent america, they used the faith in the world, the faith of iraqis, and the faith of the american people to carry out their criminal intent for iraq. this is something i always knew, as did many americans. unfortunately my instincts have come to fruition for all the world to see. maybe as people wake up to the incompetence and criminality that placed such horrendous policies that could only lead to instability in iraq, somehow, we can find leaders, both in iraq , america, and the region of iraq that can be trusted to bring peace to the region.
as i mentioned earlier, there are so many opinions i agree w/from the bloggers, but one person said something that mirrors a feeling of mine it is not too popular to admit. although i can not say i think the war has been worth it, for all the loss of life and pain, i do think one of the positive things that has come from this experience is TAI's final answer.
i share this view. i do not want a world superpower, i don't want my country to act as a superpower. why? because if it is not clear now to everyone it should be. if criminals rule the superpower it effects more than those inside their border, it dangers the whole world.
BT,
I realize I'm persona non grata around here but really enjoyed this post. I like RhusLancia's "Practice Makes Perfect" plan although I realize it is too late to implement it.
As for the belly-aching about the how Iraqis have suffered since March 2003, this is what I said to BlogIraqi regarding a similar post:
"I can understand the ambivalent feelings about having your country invaded. But I think you are underplaying the fact that there is absolutely NO WAY Saddam would have been gone without the invasion. You can choose to drink or you can choose to be dry. But you cannot choose to drink AND be dry.
The point is that the US deposed one of the Middle East’s worst tyrants and imposed democracy for it’s own safety: because tyranny in the ME had proven to be a toxin that had threatened the safety of its own cities. After 12 years Iraq fortunately/unfortunately for you was at the top of the US’s “to do” list. Some vitally important long term good has come to Iraqis from Saddam’s deposing (if we don’t give up), and a lot of short term bad has arisen too.
But "good or bad for Iraqis" was not the *primary* reason for the US’s decision to invade. It was self-preservation. Making something good in Iraq is not *primary* responsibility of the US — it is the responsibility of Iraqis like you."
cmar ii: "I like RhusLancia's "Practice Makes Perfect" plan although I realize it is too late to implement it."
Thanks, cmar ii, but why do you think it's too late? There are rumors of Maliki being replaced coming out daily, by coup or by coalition. I'm suggesting he pre-empt these, but in a positive way. The UIA may even get elected again, or Allawi might, but hopefully everyone (including Sunnis) would participate with clearer eyes this time. They will in '09 if they get the chance, but why wait? Even if it took constitutional changes to do it, I think it would be an easy sell at this point.
RL,
If there is a coup, then it is all over for Iraq. Start stripping it for parts. Just decide to divide it up for Iran, S.A. Syria, and Turkey, and prepare for Fortress America.
Changing the rules and having early elections would be the same thing under another name and that is why it will never happen. It could only be done if the assembly were to vote a change in the constitution to allow it and why would they ever do that?
The Iraqi government must follow each procedure by the book or rule by law will never be established.
As I said over at IBC:
IMO the biggest "mistakes" of the US overseers was 1) Letting the Iraqi tribal and religious leaders have their way with an "at large" election system rather than selecting assembly members by district as Bremmer originally planned and 2) Not insisting on a 2 year "trial government" the first time around.
But it is unlikely those mistakes would have been avoided unless the overseers had powers of foresight that would make that woman on the TV show "Medium" look like an eggplant.
What's done is done. But whatever the Democrats say, I do not believe whoever is elected President will be unpatriotic enough to seriously withdraw forces from Iraq until ONE year after the next government is installed. That's 2010.
I've spoken and counted to three.
THE ROMAN OPTION FOR IRAQ???
Thank you so much for these articles.
My stomach turned when I read the comments by "The Ugly American" in which he neatly puts the blame for the chaos in Iraq onto the Iraqi people.
I have read similar articles like this in the corporate media, inferring that the Iraqis are "ungrateful" and "the cause" of the failure. These articles worry me....what is this leading up to?? Some writers are now saying that the US military will force "the ROMAN option" onto Iraq...what is it, and what does it mean????
cmar ii: "If there is a coup, then it is all over for Iraq."
Yeah, I agree here. Once soembody tries to overthrow maliki we'd probably amazed at how many people would take up arms to support him. Enough to cause some hurt, at least.
cmar ii: "Changing the rules and having early elections would be the same thing under another name and that is why it will never happen."
But I disagree with this. I think the most important thing is for Iraqis to back the gov't and give it time. If I were Maliki, my speech would generally go like this:
"My fellow Iranians- I mean Iraqis- these are difficult but promising times. We have a chance to shed decades of tyrany and oppression and forge a new Iraq that serves its citizens, not its tyrants.
I know my governemtn has not met your expectations. I know many do not support me. I know difficulties remain. I announce today that new elections will be held in december of this year. We will hold them openly, to international standards, and we will show ourselves and teh world that we can choose our leaders responsibly.
In exchange, I ask that you work for today's challenges and assist your current government in these difficult times.
We can make Iraq better. We can act responsibly. Let us do it together."
Or soemthing to that effect. If Maliki does it, with a positive spin, it could work.
anonymous: "Some writers are now saying that the US military will force "the ROMAN option" onto Iraq...what is it, and what does it mean????"
cmar ii, you know how I mentioned on IBC about the sweet nothings people start whispering around to cloud reality? Well, annie brought this up a day or two ago on 24 Steps. Is it a coincidence, or is there some broadcast that goes out?
anonymous, the US military is not going to make a desert and call it peace, like the Romans did.
rhus,
Is it a coincidence, or is there some broadcast that goes out?
it ceases to be a secret when it lands in juan cole. there was a big policy meeting of the elite and congress w/some academics who put the info out on a listserve for other political scientists and thats how it landed in cole's blog.
sweet nothings people start whispering around to cloud reality?
lol, yeah, that is what we are supposed to think when the cat gets out of the bag. quiet little children, it's just a briefing for he adults, go put you earplugs in.
the conversation continues ,from the comments..
the difference between elite consciousness of these issues and popular/media consciousness is huge. Huge enough so that one can consistently manipulate the other, and create a situation in which the people are fooled into thinking that the conversation they hear in the media is the one also taking place behind closed doors in the government...
ps, while you are there check out the home page, some interesting news
Well, I have just gone into that website to try and get a better idea of what "the Roman option" means. I gather it means "a massive onslaught againt civilians".
So what was FalluJah, Hit and those other towns then?
Or is the US military thinking about throwing down a nuke into Iraq somewhere??
I don't know what is going to happen. All I know is that the US military is getting frustrated, and the Bush administration have demonstrated amply to the world, even with the treatment of their own people in Hurricane Katrina, that they don't care about human life. I fear the violence is about to escalate in Iraq.
Oh lordy. It's Juan Cole! He says it and they all come out of the woodwork repeating it.
Incidentally, the mad doctor is repeating something some political studies professor is waxing pensive about on a "listserv" (does he meaning a mailing list? Welcome to 1998, Juan; I think I'll listen to a "music cd-rom" on this "victrola"). He *claims* that the briefing of the "counter insurgency" field manual (neither Cole nor the professor say where this is, what the full title is, or how to get a copy if it exists) contains a mention of the "Rome" strategy only in order note that it is unacceptable for American forces.
The professor *does* note that the Rome strategy was how SADDAM kept insurgencies in check...so remember that next time someone complains that "at least under Saddam you didn't have to fear being killed by an insurgent or militia."
RL,
There are rumors of Maliki being replaced coming out daily, by coup or by coalition.
I hope Allawi does that although I lost hope in him. I think the Baath Party disease which he once joined made him want to hide like Saddam in a rat hole! I hope he reconsiders his hiding and gets out to help Iraq with his brutal and secular views, if he really wants to help his once-upon-time country.
I loved 24’s comment concerning the solution of how to bring stability to Iraq:
Send the government home and bring Iyad Allawi to power again. Announce a real emergency status in the country. Stop promising Shiites and Kurds the biggest shares in the cake and stop kissing the Sunnis ass to play a role in a government that is not capable of doing anything in the first place. Appeal to the real and influential tribal leaders and bribe them to help in controlling the mob. Execute terrorists [under any labels, like insurgents or militias] and in public, that should include those who are making millions by just allowing foreign fighters to cross into Iraq from neighboring countries. Educate Iraqis on how to vote and why. Hold elections a year after all this starts.
we'd probably amazed at how many people would take up arms to support him.
Are you serious? Hopefully most, if not all, Baghdadis will took up arms and kill him and his men. Shiites in Sadr city? They hate him and they threw all kinds of insults and stones at his motorcade when he visited them. Sunnis? They like to suck his blood after all his support to the Badr troops that killed many of their people there. Hopefully, he won’t have a place in Baghdad unless the US covers his ass and that’s what is most likely to happen!
Annie, Thanks for your nice words.
why? not because i don't believe in america, but because i knew and know, that the criminals running our country do not represent america, they used the faith in the world, the faith of iraqis, and the faith of the american people to carry out their criminal intent
You are right. These criminals are using YOU –your troops- to carry out their own interests. Everyone knows that America is not safer since the invasion. Everyone knows that they no longer believe in the human mission of the US soldiers anymore. Although I am not a big fan of US troops (sorry troops supporters but I am Iraqi!), but I know pretty well they are human beings who are carrying out orders. I don’t think other countries would go to ask the US troops for help anymore even for humanitarian mission. The images they saw in the prison abuses are enough to create a huge fear allover the world. I am not saying ALL troops are bad but what happened, including the whole war thing, was enough to make people lose confidence in America.
there is absolutely NO WAY Saddam would have been gone without the invasion.
The issue is not the invasion now. What happened has happened. We are blaming the US for its mistakes AFTER the invasion. Starting from disbanding the ALL the former Iraqi army members leaving them to be bites for al-Qaeda who tempted them with thousands of dollars to start the chaos by attacking the US troops, then the Iraqi troops, and then the civilians. I feel I am fed up with talking about the Iraqi government and, thank God, people allover the world knows how corrupt and sectarian it is.
Anonymous,
You are very welcome.
Some writers are now saying that the US military will force "the ROMAN option" onto Iraq...what is it, and what does it mean????
I think they meant thisTHIS
When Agricola's legions stormed to the north of Britain to face the tribes of Caledonia nearly 2,000 years ago, the Roman governor of Britain used exactly the same strategy as the Pentagon in Iraq. He sent his fleet ahead to spread uncertainty and terror - for which read the aerial bombardment of Baghdad - and then marched north with a highly mobile and lightly equipped army.
His son-in-law, the historian Tacitus, recorded that the Scottish tribes greatly outnumbered the Romans yet when they saw Agricola's ability to regroup his army in battle they turned and ran. By the end of the engagement Agricola had lost just 360 men, against the enemy's 10,000 casualties.
The parallels between the Roman and American actions are striking, not just in the daring tactics, the relative losses and superior organization but also in their motivation. Agricola undertook the campaign to prevent a 'general rising of the northern nations' - ie to provide security for the region and ultimately for Rome even though it lay 1,000 miles away.
At the time the reaction to the Romans was much the same as the passion and fear inspired by the Americans today. According to Tacitus, the leader of the Caledonian forces, Calgacus, described the Romans thus: 'Pillagers of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate plunder ... The only people on Earth to whose covetousness both riches and poverty are equally tempting. To robbery, butchering, and rapine, they give the lying name of government; they create desolation and call it peace.'
me: "we'd probably amazed at how many people would take up arms to support him."
BT: "Are you serious? Hopefully most, if not all, Baghdadis will took up arms and kill him and his men."
I am serious. I remember an article not too long ago about some "Maliki Protection Council" that was formed to support him. Call me a liar and I'll look for the link, otherwise take my word for it.
But seriously, an opposition coalition has already been shot down (figuratively) by Sistani, hasn't it? And he still has supporters. What if a coup began and the rumor spread that it was some Baathist guy behind it? How many people would shoot each other before they realized it was Allawi?
Keep in mind, the RLPfPMPD allows for Allawi to take over legitimately, if that's what Iraqis want, or for Maliki to keep the job, if that's what Iraqis want. You just can't have you-know-who back. Sorry.
For the role of the US troops today, not yesterday, I think their mission is clearly to protect Iraqi civilians and get the people who are trying to kill and intimidate. And I think they are getting some promising early results.
Good job on the roundup, by the way!
The issue is not the invasion now. What happened has happened.
Well, since this post is presented on the anniversary of the invasion, I'd say the invasion is still an issue.
We are blaming the US for its mistakes AFTER the invasion. Starting from disbanding the ALL the former Iraqi army members leaving them to be bites for al-Qaeda who tempted them with thousands of dollars to start the chaos....
Oh, poo! Those in the army who did not disband themselves were those who served in Saddam's army because they were true believers. They weren't tempted away by al-Qaeda's dollars. They were tempted away all too easily by former regime elements who never for a moment stopped fighting since April 9th, 2003. The protestors hurt in Fallujeh on Saddam's birthday later that month were their handiwork as related by Bing West in "No True Glory".
I'm frustrated by events in Iraq too. I wish the problems were as easy as getting getting rid of one guy or group of guys and putting the right one in. But there are 20 million or so problems with Iraq right now (some, much bigger than others) just as there are 350 million weak links in the US (some much weaker than others).
I don't know exactly what the solution for Iraq is (things seem to be improving for the time-being) but I'm glad no one followed your advice in 2003 to give heavy armaments to Saddam's most ardent loyalists...the same army that slaughtered 10s of 1000s of Iraqis in 1991. And I am glad that Allawi is too smart and patriotic to stage a coup. As I said, if there is a coup, there will be no Iraq to complain about.
The sign of a true free democratic government is that everyone is free to openly despise it. The current government of Iraq is far from perfect but it is the Iraqis' choice for the next three years, so deal with it. Lend your voice to get it to make better decisions. Talk of a coup is ludicrous. (I really suspect you and 24STL are yanking our chain now).
(things seem to be improving for the time-being)
out of touch
I remember an article not too long ago about some "Maliki Protection Council" that was formed to support him. Call me a liar and I'll look for the link, otherwise take my word for it.
Dude, I don’t need to call you a liar. We are arguing, not insulting. I don’t know about this Maliki Protection thingie. I am speaking out of my own experience in BAGHDAD. I didn’t say all Iraq. I am sure he has supporters allover Iraq, especially in the south but in Baghdad he’s a burned card.
How many people would shoot each other before they realized it was Allawi?
Hehehe. They are already shooting whether randomly or at each other.
See, we are talking about something that will never happen. If the Americans let a coup to happen, this will become the official announcement of their failure which happened by supporting the worst PM ever.
Good job on the roundup, by the way!
Thanks.
BT and everybody else thank you very much for this post!
Well done BT as always : )
With lots of respect/ Nadia
BT: "Dude, I don’t need to call you a liar. We are arguing, not insulting. I don’t know about this Maliki Protection thingie."
I know-that was a joke... kinda like I hope I don't have to prove every comma, but I will if need be!
BT: "Hehehe. They are already shooting whether randomly or at each other."
It just seems like there'd be some inertia over any radical change of direction- even a coup against Maliki. Maybe Iraq could have a bloodless coup like Thailand, but I seriously doubt it.
BT: "See, we are talking about something that will never happen. If the Americans let a coup to happen, this will become the official announcement of their failure which happened by supporting the worst PM ever."
So I think we are virtually unanimous here: no coup!
BT
"Shiites in Sadr city? They hate him"
Shiites in Sadr city are not all the Iraqis. I couldn’t care less about them if the rest of Iraq agreed on Allawi. Don’t think that they are the representatives of Shiites. If they are, shame on Shiites if that's the best they can do!
Shiites in Sadr city are not al iraqis.
I didn't say they are. I was talking about Baghdad and how Sunnis and Shiites in BAGHDAD are no longer in favor of Maliki.
i couldnt care less about them if the rest of iraq agreed on Allawi.
RL and I were discussing if Maliki would get support in Iraq and I talked about Maliki's popularity in Baghdad and how it looks like if a coup happens. We were not talking about if they favor Allawi or not or whether they are the majority or not.
Whether you care more or less, they became an important factor in the whole "New Iraq" thing whether by their militias or by their representatives in the Parliament and government, whether we liked that or not.
Don't forget that this city [Sadr City} is aching the government and the US policy since it's the main hideout of the Mahdi Army which is playing a big role in the sectarian violence in Iraq. So, to solve the problem, you SHOULD care. Otherwise, you'll leave them do whatever they want to do.
Hi Nadia,
You are very welcome :)
Spot on about the "Roman Option," BT. My blog's title comes from the very passage that you quoted (although my translation uses "desert" instead of "desolation," but desolation seems more accurate—what would most tribal Scots know of deserts, at the time?). The Romans, in the end, didn't fare very well, did they?
chapeau BT! very well done!
bests!
Mariestaad,
Yes, I noticed that famous line. It sums up everything.
Thanks again for sharing your viewpoints with us.
Cile,
Merci bien!
do you know who at electroniciraq that was?
That’s exactly what the Americans and the Iraqi government are doing, care about the militias.
The militias don’t represent all Iraqis. I insist. And if you are like your government, which means you are afraid to deal with them. Then you will lose like they did. In fact that means that I do care about what they are doing and want to hold them responsible. To give up and act like you cannot do anything o stop them? What logic is that? Then why did the Iraqis risk their lives to vote for a government if the government doesn’t do a thing? You, and the Iraqi government, are the ones who always say this cliché “they became an important factor” in Iraq. NO, they are not important factor. They are a criminal factor that should be deprived of any rights if they don’t behave in a way that benefits Iraq. Period.
Omar, take it easy man. You don't need to yell. I don't necessarily agree with what I said but it's a fact that you should care about.
Regardless of them being vulgar or criminal, they are part of our society. Period. I didn't bring them from Iran. I didn't bring them from the US. They are not strangers. They are Iraqis and citizens of this country.
I don't like them [Sadr City people] but that does not mean they are animals. They suffered like you and me and now they need to have their rights. Isn't that what all this "New Democratic Iraq" falls into?
The main issue is how to make them have their rights in a civilized democratic way and how to convince them do that. You can't just ignore the two million people of Sadr city. You'll never achieve anything out of ignoring them. Saddam ignored them for 35 years and here is the consequences. Instead of improving their situation and living status, he made them hungry. They turned to be like beasts. But even beasts can be tamed if you are a good trainer.
Ukhuthlak fed habaya paracetol. La titlif Aasabak heech.
heh heh heh
As I said the other day, "which side are you on?"
24Steps, there's a nice picture there of Muqtada enjoying a treat.
:)
BT,
Yes, they are citizens of the country. No objection. And that’s why we have prisons and death sentence!
And what point are you discussing here? About their rights? Are you repeating what I already said?
Here is what I said “should be deprived of any rights if they don’t behave in a way that benefits Iraq.”
Being Iraqi doesn’t mean they can do what they want. And it certainly doenst mean I have to give them rights. I am saying that they shouldn’t be granted their rights if they don’t work for the benefit of Iraq. do you disagree with this logic?
Plus, I wasn’t yelling. Where do you thing I was yelling? In what capitalized sentence or word in my comment?!
Hi BT, thanks again for asking me to participate! :) It has taken me a while, but I have finally read all of the participants thoughts (including the updates). I can definitely say that I have learned some new things and expanded my knowledge of the situation in Iraq, past and present. I think it is important to history to try and look into the past to assign responsibility for where we are today, but what has been done is done. As some of the respondents have eloquently pointed out, what is most important is where we go from here? I think that exchanges of ideas like this forum (and hopefully many others!) will help to move things in a positive direction.
Of the various contributors here, I think that I was most impressed with Zeyad and "Alive in Baghdad". Both talked about the need for a reconciliation process. Saddam left a lot of open wounds during his 30 years of tyranny that need to be healed. The past 4 years have created new wounds that may be even worse. There is much to do, and I hope there is the will to do it!
One more thing, I thought that Mariestaad made an excellent point when she said "jobs, jobs and more jobs" are needed to quell the violence in Iraq. One thing that I never understood was why did the U.S. have to bring in foreign contractors to "rebuild" Iraq (companies like Haliburten have made a fortune off the American taxpayer's dime while doing half-ass or no-ass quality work)? Iraq was already filled with highly competent engineers and craftsmen. So, why weren't Iraqi people employed to rebuild their own country? Now many of these highly skilled people have left Iraq to escape the violence and to find employment. This is yet another tragic mistake of the Bush administration!
David,
when the americans came into iraq, they didn't trust the iraqis. so, they left them waiting in lines outside the green zone and didn't give them jobs. we wrote stories about the thousands of iraqis lining up waiting for ajob in "rebuilding" but nothing happened. when it was too late, they called for iraqis to come back. it was already dangerous to work in rebuilding!
Hi 24, thanks for your comment. I didn't know that thousands of Iraqis lined up looking for work! What an incredible opportunity that was lost! Perhaps you are right, that it was a matter of American lack of trust in Iraqis. However, I tend to take a more cynical view. The American contracting companies that were brought into Iraq were all good friends of Bush and Cheney (and probably huge political contributors too). They came to Iraq to make big money, not to help Iraqi people.
I saw an interesting program a few days ago. It talked about the really big construction boom up in Kurdistan. Given time perhaps this boom will spill over into central and southern Iraq if the security situation can be improved. I so hope it can be!
Holy Cow, this is going to take me weeks to just read it; never mind commenting on it.
I really liked "24 Steps" comments, but I don't agree with all of his solutions. My thoughts are K.S.S.
Keep it
Simple,
Stupid.
the more complex the solution, the easier it is to mess up. Network with local well respected people and encourage them to become part of the solution by promicing them they won't be killed.
The newest issue of Foreign Policy Journal has a lead essay on the future of Iraq. Irecommend you read it. He compares previous modern Civil wars (55) and categorizes them by outcomes 3 or 4 categories. Then debates the pros and cons of where Iraq will fall in the categories. Very interesting. Very interesting
edoriver; "The newest issue of Foreign Policy Journal has a lead essay on the future of Iraq."
edo, that sounds interesting... got a link for it?
Being Iraqi doesn’t mean they can do what they want. And it certainly doenst mean I have to give them rights. I am saying that they shouldn’t be granted their rights if they don’t work for the benefit of Iraq. do you disagree with this logic?
sorry, i just had to comment because this particular thought bristled when i read it. i don't think governments should give or grant yje most important rights.governments should secure rights we already have, that we are born with.
i believe
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
rather than approaching the idea that these 2 million people have to do something to earn their rights wouldn't it be more prudent to assume they already have rights, and only the one's who act against the law have their rights withheld?
if someone is already being denied their unalienable rights, then do they not have the right to fight for those rights against those who are denying them?
without taking sides here wrt these people who i do not know well enough to judge.. but w/an amount like 2 million people when you make them initially earn rights, then it becomes a situation like palestine, where we assume they are all deserving of their prison.
24, i am going to drag over a comment i made on you blog wrt your post here that i think is relevant to the discussion
i think i prefer the idea of reconciliation rather that public executions as i have mentioned before. that may not be as important as the other points you make. for one thing, there is the definition of what constitutes a terrorist and if you start executing people who have been instrumental in forming the gov who also were participants in the death squads then you could immediately find yourself in a situation where you become the reverse side of the coin and have resistance that you would not have if you were more inclusive.
people act different when they feel their lives, and the lives of their families are in grave danger.
we empowered certain militias in iraq..(from bruno's 5:02 link)
And one particular article about the Badr Brigade, which is a Shiite militia, I'm sure you know, which General Casey was very keen to push, basically applauded the Badr Brigade for not retaliating against attacks on the Shia in Baghdad. And he was very keen to get it pushed out, and two newspapers in a row refused to publish it, because it was too inflammatory in a political sense. So that was a very interesting experience, having this senior, senior general getting involved in the nitty-gritty and wanting one particular story to go out, only to discover that no Iraqi newspapers in their right mind were willing to publish it for however much money we offered.
of course there is an abundance of evidence for this besides that one man's testimony, yet i used this one because i think it is an excellent example of not only how clueless the invader was about the culture, but also how ordinary civilians could, in their right mind, distrust the information they were being spoonfed thru the propaganda, information that informed them of danger.
now, on the otherside of the coin, people who were empowered by the 'new government', is it appropriate to excecute them? or more precisely how can you condem one criminal act, and not the other. you would have to spend so much time punisjing people w/so many gruesome executions , how could you expect a society to be calm w/all the retribution and blame.
i think there needs to be a calming effect to end the violence. people act normal when you treat them normally. in this way, i do not think the reactions in iraq were outrageous by human standards, i think they were natural.
24STL,
when the americans came into iraq, they didn't trust the iraqis. so, they left them waiting in lines outside the green zone and didn't give them jobs.
You can't have it both ways. The Americans trusted some Iraqis and not others. There have been endless complaints about the Iraqis IN IRAQ whom the American's trusted (not just Iraqis returning after having been chased out by Saddam). Also, there were a lot of Iraqis the US would have been stupid to trust. There were lots of people lining up to kill Americans and (like it or not) a significant number of Arab Iraqis (Shi'a, Sunni, and Aardvark) have always excused or even countenanced murders of Coalition soldiers.
The fact is that the US soldiers were very trusting of Iraqis when they first entered Baghdad. Because of acts by jihadists and insurgents, they stopped trusting. Same on the Iraqi side. That was the goal of the jihadists and Saddamists and narrow-minded imams. I don't know how that goal could be thrwarted.
Perhaps the US should have immunized itself from this criticism. Maybe it should have left immediately as soon as Saddam was captured. Perhaps until that point they should have treated all Iraqis as enemies so there wouldn't have been any "misunderstandings". Maybe until they left, they should have said right from April 9, 2007, "We're just here to round up Saddam's inner circle. We're not providing jobs to anyone or building up the country. You guys do that yourself." But does anyone believe that hands off approach would have resulted in anything but Iraq immediately splitting into 4 or 5 very miserable parts?
You've said it yourself many times, 24: "The Iraqis did it to themselves." 100K foreign non-Arabic speaking soldiers could never alter a course set collectively by 28 million Iraqis whose worst elements were being encouraged by Iraq's backwards neighbors.
100K foreign non-Arabic speaking soldiers could never pull off the ideas they weren't really invaders and were there simply to liberate.
and why do you think that was? because they were invaders. a rose by any other name and all that.
The fact is that the US soldiers were very trusting of Iraqis when they first entered Baghdad.
the fact is that people who trust you do not bomb you, shoot at you and shock and awe you.
if the US had trusted iraqis to greet them as liberators they would have had no need to flood the country w/propaganda. this constant defense of all things americana is not going to produce solutions, no matter how many ideas you preface w/'the fact is'. doesn't make it a fact, especially when in flies in the face of logic. all US soldiers aren't the same, do not act the same, or think the same, so you cannot speak for what they were all thinking.
it is fairly established and agreed apon that a lot of the policies and the way they were carried out in part led to the failure of the percieved mission in iraq. it's a little late to try to prop it up w/more propaganda, especially w/a poster who was there, is iraqi, and can be assumed speaks for the experience of at least a portion of his countrymen/women.
alter a course set collectively by 28 million Iraqis whose worst elements were being encouraged by Iraq's backwards neighbors.
this is so wildly weird i don't even know where to start.
a course set collectively by 28 million Iraqis
are you nuts? did you miss the post? and what pray tell was this collective course that each and every iraq set? obviously there were many iraqis who had high hopes for the american experiment.
being encouraged by Iraq's backwards neighbors
really? so, i presume you think the heart of the resistance was spurred by AQ?? is that what you are referring to? you really think the influence of these foreigners is at the heart of the issue?
and what about the foreign elements encouraged by the US? don't you think empowering shiites via badr brigades may have supported some iranian influence?
and who is responsible for that?
generalizing about who influences 28 million iraq's in 03 is pretty heady of you.
don't you think empowering shiites via badr brigades may have supported some iranian influence?
News flash, annie: the badr brigades were Iraqi. And they represented a significant anti-Saddam force from the majority demographic of Iraq. You might as well bitch about Kurds being empowered via the peshmurga.
i presume you think the heart of the resistance was spurred by AQ
No. The heart of the resistance was spurred by loyalty to Saddam, to Arab Nationalism, and sectarian chauvinism. They did have a working relationship with AQ, however, as is revealed in the writings and testimony of Michael Ware, their most eloquent Western biographer.
Yet, I was referring to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Jordan. As well as more distant regional neighbors like Egypt; the populations and/or governments of which have provided sanctuary, moneys,fighters, and philosophical encouragement to the worst of Iraqis to disrupt their country's stability and modernization. Iraqis are attempting to gentrify an really really bad neighborhood.
generalizing about who influences 28 million iraq's in 03 is pretty heady of you.
I am saying that Iraq today is what Iraqis have made of it. Kurdistan is relatively stable, liberal, and it's economy is booming despite often lacking dependable electricity and water. It is a place for Iraqi refugees of all heritages. The South of Iraq is relatively stable but is significantly less liberal...dangerously so for some. The West is often a den for insurgents and jihadists. Baghdad has become a war zone as sectarian groups in various districts (where they are tolerated) oppress people there and essay out to blow up people in other districts.
In each area, it is individual decisions (whether to act or not to act) of millions of Iraqis who have made it what it is.
The sole purpose of the foreign troops is not to turn Iraqis into angels. It is only to give Iraq some time...time for the government become founded on a viable contract with the governed whether they be Sunni, Shi'a, Chaldean, Arab, Kurd, Turkoman, or Aardvark.
So it is idiotic, unfair, and counter-productive for 28 million Iraqis to blame 130K foreign soldiers for Iraqis killing Iraqis.
100K foreign non-Arabic speaking soldiers could never alter a course set collectively by 28 million Iraqis whose worst elements were being encouraged by Iraq's backwards neighbors.
I am saying that Iraq today is what Iraqis have made of it.
yeah, i get exactly what you are saying.
don't you think empowering shiites via badr brigades may have supported some iranian influence?
News flash, cmar: i already knew the badr brigades were Iraqi.i take it from your response your either don't think there was any threat from badr/deathsquads and you don't think there is any iranian influence infiltrating badr, and/or you don't think iranian influence has had any negative effect, and you don't think america should bare any blame for dragging the salvadoran option into iraq?
You might as well bitch about Kurds being empowered via the peshmurga.
oh really? only i didn't did i? i was 'bitching'your complete abdication of blame for any part america may have played in this fiasco and your willingness to absolve all reponsibilty of the invader who stripped the entire guts out of the previous government including firing 1000's of workers which has been widely attributed one of the supreme failures of the cpa. the point of your comment originated in your slapdown of 24's response and laying the blame "collectively by 28 million Iraqis" although you mention the bad elements you completely ignore two of the most detrimental causes of the civil war, the deathsquads (the one's america trained and funded) and the lack of work w/occurred as a result of a grotesque lack of planning for post invasion. BOTH of which could have been avoided.
how very convenient of you. if 100K foreign non-Arabic speaking soldiers could never alter a course, that was predicted in our own state department report (or a little history lesson) then we never , ever should have invaded to begin with. you may want to try not using that word never so carelessly, i can use it too.
The sole purpose of the foreign troops is not to turn Iraqis into angels. It is only to give Iraq some time.
oh really? the sole purpose i presume? don't get snarky w/me and blather on about angels. it just so happens since our failed experiment in nation building has gone kerplunk, time has run out COMPLETELY for a few 100 thousand iraqis.
please spare me your rhetoric that places all the blame on iraqis. my country is going to be living w/the guilt of what we have done for generations to come, just like in vietnam.
ps, i'm not blaming 130K foreign soldiers. i like to go right to the top, at the neocons who designed this disaster w/their faster please caldronizing rhetoric.
we should have known better, we did know better and only an american wimp would abdicate total responsibility of something their own country spearheaded.
i take it from your response your either don't think there was any threat from badr/deathsquads and you don't think there is any iranian influence infiltrating badr, and/or you don't think iranian influence has had any negative effect...
sigh...The Peshmurga were JUST as cozy with Iran during Saddam's reign as were the Badr Brigade. If the US should have treated the Badr Brigade as though it were a foreign invading force from Iran, then they should have done the same with the Peshmurga for the same reasons.
and you don't think america should bare any blame for dragging the salvadoran option into iraq?
Erm...I don't think you know what the Salvadoran option is. It founded on the successful defeat of an insurgency in El Salvador. It is not a neo-con plot.
It founded on the successful defeat of an insurgency in El Salvador.
bullcrap , that would be entirely dependent on your definition of 'successful'
I don't think you know what the Salvadoran option is.
google school of the americans. read up on ypur history of american regime change in the last 50 years.
child
If the US should have treated the Badr Brigade as though it were a foreign invading force from Iran, then they should have done the same with the Peshmurga for the same reasons.
who is suggesting the US should have treated the Badr Brigade as though it were a foreign invading force from Iran? i noticed you are arguing a strawman instead of addressing my initial observation/question.
point taken
I was just reading that when Paul Bremer would drive around Baghdad in the early days of occupation and the kids would flash him the "thumbs up" sign he thought they were showing him their pleasure with the Americans. Is it true those kids were really giving him the middle finger?
http://web.mac.com/poorsancho/iWeb/Iraq%20War%20Opinion%20and%20Analysis/Poor%20Sancho/Poor%20Sancho.html
Baghdad Treasure –
I always enjoy your roundups. This one was no exception.
Thanks for taking the time to ask all these people their opinions.
On the whole Allawi-Maliki thing:
I don’t believe that a coup is the way to go. Why? Simple.
The only way a coup can succeed in Iraq right now is IF the person overthrowing the government has material or tacit support from the US. That means you get another strongman that answers to Washington and not to his own people. That also means that ultimately, if the US doesn’t like what he is doing (even IF he does turn out to be beneficial to Iraq) it can get rid of him in favour of somebody else. Which means a fresh round of fighting until the new ‘new guy’ is entrenched.
I don’t believe that having a PM that is a recognised intelligence asset of the CIA is a good thing for ANY country, least of all Iraq.
Having said that, the Maliki government has to be recognised as a huge, huge failure. And HIS political independence from Washington has to be questioned as well. I mean, it was supposed to be Jafaari in power, wasn’t it, until the US stepped in and forced him out? Maliki started with some good proposals (withdrawing US troops, national reconciliation etc) but the US quashed the withdrawal bits and he proved to be unable to implement any sort of reconciliation at all.
So, at the moment it’s the choice of the frying pan and the fire.
There has got to be a third way.
As unlikely as it seems, there needs to be a national reconciliation between the factions. And there must 100% be a US withdrawal in the next year or two, or sooner if possible. I don’t see Iraqis reconciling when there is a third party in the middle playing the field for its own advantage.
" An orgy of death and destruction on a scale rarely seen. As an American I am complicit and feel ashamed at what WE DID to the peace loving people of Iraq."
"The peace loving people of Iraq"
Oh really ??? So Iraq did NOT
invade Kuwait ??? ...
So the Anfal campaign was made up
by western media ???
The Mass graves throughout Iraq
fabricated by Amnesty International??
The thousands of car-bombings
targeting civillians ....
So Bush is behind those ???
Abu-Ghraib under Saddam rule
how was it run ???
This is the time for the peace loving people to come forward
and claim their country from
the extremists.
When this horrible period of Iraq
History ends an accurate assement
of casualties can be made ...
We will find out that Iraqi
deaths at the hands of American forces will be under 10,000
Many of those were
good decent Iraqi civillians
caught up in the middle of war ...
A good portion were decent
patriotic Iraqi soldiers
who stood their
ground and fought the Americans
with honor and dignity.
But many others were hardcore
Saddam loyalists ... the enforcers of Saddams regime.
Simple fact fore 3.5 years the overwhelming number of deaths
has been due to Iraqi - Iraqi violence.
great post :)
well done, BT, and Congrats for the new layout.. much much better! salam to 24steps, take care!
Fascinating response by "annie"
as American soldiers walk on foot
absorbing roadside bombs many of which would also target Iraqi
civilians in Baghdad ...
Working like hell every day
to keep the violence down ...
trying giving the moderate elements a chance to come forward and bring
an end to the violence
I ask the simplest of all questions again
Where is Iraqs oil ???
Where are the "invaders" ???
A few weeks ago over 2 million
Iraqi Shia walked in peace to
Karbala
in a beautiful display of freedom of religion ... this pilgramage
was banned under Saddam ....
And you sit in the USA crying
about you goddam rights under Bush
because if you called a phone number in a certain region of Pakistan or Afghanistan your
call may be recorded ... well isn't
too bad !!!
The simple fact is huge numbers
of Iraqi Hated Saddam and Baathist
rule much much more then many
urban Iraqi realized ... and these
peoples voices are now being heard.
I ask our Iraqi visitors to
America this question ... by now
you must have seen the
"Save Darfur" adds
CLAMORING FOR AMERICAN INTERVENTION
IN DARFUR ....
I ask you what rate of killing
and what level of brutality
should be exceeded in Darfur
before Bush orders Americans
to Darfur ...
100 dead per day ... 200 ???
In Baghdad before this new security
plan ... there were
about 70-100 Iraqi dead per day ...
And annie wants us out of Baghdad
So annie does not like 'Superpower"
America ... good ... so the
"Save Darfur" groups can call on
Chirac to save Darfur
I have NOT seen a single add
calling for NATO to go into Darfur
The group is calling for the evil
Bush to act !!!
Oh really ??? So Iraq did NOT
invade Kuwait ??? ...
So the Anfal campaign was made up
by western media ???
The Mass graves throughout Iraq
fabricated by Amnesty International??
Anonymous, you need to wear your glasses. He said “People of Iraq” not “leaders of Iraq”. Your hatred to Iraqi people made you unable to recognize words. By the way, glasses are cheap in Iraq. I can ask my friends to make one for you and send it to you. You don’t need to worry about the high prices and the unjust health care here in the US.
This is the time for the peace loving people to come forward
and claim their country from
the extremists.
Where is Iraqs oil ???
C’mon! You know whom to ask about that!
CLAMORING FOR AMERICAN INTERVENTION
IN DARFUR ....
Oh please I beg your forces not to go their. There are innocent people dying who don’t want more death and destruction. You destroyed a civilized modern society, so what about a society that is already destroyed? Please don’t go. You can’t restore Iraq even to its previous shape. So how could you restore and already destroyed one? Man! Mind your business. Don’t pretend to be the saviors of the WORLD because you are not. You can’t even save yourself. Can’t you see how the world’s impression concerning you has changed? Can you see how many people realized that they were deceived by your Hollywood movies which showed the FBI and CIA as heroes? People are not stupid anymore. On one hand, I am glad that the war revealed how the image you gave to the world is absolutely phony.
"Save Darfur" groups can call on
Chirac to save Darfur
They should! At least Chirac’s reputation is not as terrible as Bush’s. At least his country did not invade other countries in the 21 century!
Anarki and Bruno,
Thanks a lot for your kind words.
there are some valuable updates on the post, for anyone who hasn't read them i recommend.
And you sit in the USA crying
about you goddam rights under Bush
because if you called a phone number in a certain region of Pakistan or Afghanistan your
call may be recorded ... well isn't
too bad !!!
lol! what a joke you are. 'a certain region' lol.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting an illegal war based on lies.
This is the time for the peace loving people to come forward
and claim their country from
the extremists.
the extremists who are gutting the constitution and ruining america.
anon, you are a joke, all who take you seriously show your name and say 'aye'. ha! i dare anyone!
Four years after their government sent in its troops, Poles are scratching their heads as to what exactly they have got out of the bloody mess.
The decision to join the coalition of the (not so) willing in Iraq, on Warsaw’s part, was not just the usual eagerness to support the US in anything and everything. It was naked opportunism.
Way back in July, 2003, three month after the war began (and just after Bush declared ‘mission accomplished’ – fool!) the then foreign minister (for the post-communist SLD government) Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz told the PAP news agency:
"We have never hidden our desire for Polish oil companies to finally have access to sources of commodities."
In January 2006, the then Polish prime minister, Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz said:
'Orlen [Poland’s largest oil refining company] should have oil deposits. And it will have them.' Asked if he meant Iraqi oil deposits, he added “Sure, those too.”
Anonymous: ""Save Darfur" groups can call on
Chirac to save Darfur"
BT: "They should! At least Chirac’s reputation is not as terrible as Bush’s. At least his country did not invade other countries in the 21 century!"
Uh oh. BT's views of Chirac & his country need a little rounding out. Luckily, you said "21 century" which is true, but as it turns out, France has actually fought the most international wars since 1946 (along with the UK). The US & USSR were tid for second, and Iraq isn't expected to change the ranking.
Also don't forget who was in the lead helping Israel get the bomb. Two hints: 1) it wasn't the us; and 2) it was the same country who helped Saddam's nuclear prgram.
Oh yeah, what country was in the top three arms suppliers to Saddam's Iraq? With only 0.5% of the total, everybody's favorite evil nation was far, far behind the leaders.
Luckily, you said "21 century"
Dude, that's why I said 21 century because I know France's history of wars and occupation of the Arab world with the British and Italian troops.
But that was all history. Something happened a hundred years ago. We are in a different world where so many things have changed.
Also don't forget who was in the lead helping Israel get the bomb.
I wouldn't care less. This bomb doesn't affect me. Lebanese and Palestinians should think about it.
Oh yeah, what country was in the top three arms suppliers to Saddam's Iraq?
Well, we were in a war! These weapons saved our ass in the war.
Me: "Luckily, you said "21 century"
BT: "Dude, that's why I said 21 century because I know France's history of wars and occupation of the Arab world with the British and Italian troops.
But that was all history. Something happened a hundred years ago. We are in a different world where so many things have changed."
Well what is the statute of limitations then? If i said "the US hasn't invaded any countries in 3.5 years" that would be technically correct along the same lines. But would you let me get away with saying such a thing?
Fact is, France has been even more aggrssive than the US since World War II, including starting real, bonafide imperialist wars. But they are given a pass. Admired, even.
Is it because of France's position on the Iraq invasion? Well, they thought it was possible Saddam had WMD too, but they couldn't care less about what Saddam did to his people. Saddam was easy to do business with: sell arms, buy oil.. . France happy.
me: "Oh yeah, what country was in the top three arms suppliers to Saddam's Iraq?"
BT: "Well, we were in a war! These weapons saved our ass in the war."
OK, I appreciate your honesty on this. I am used to people fixating on the .5% of the arms we contributed as evidence of how evil we were, while ignoring the vastly superior contributions of others. That's good for you, too, because you can say the US was evil for not selling Saddam enough weapons.
Damned if we do & damned if we don't, of course, but your take is refreshing at least.
[anon] “American soldiers walk on foot absorbing roadside bombs many of which would also target Iraqi
civilians in Baghdad ... “
That’s a laugh! Now, this anonymous fool tries to make it out that the US soldiers are doing Iraqis A FAVOUR by bringing the war directly to the residential areas of Iraq, where the IED’s that target them can kill Iraqi civilians as well. There’s bent logic, and then there is completely twisted logic, of which this is a prime example. Go patrol the desert, ya Amreekans, where fighting won’t hurt anybody but yourselves and the Iraqis that actually want to fight.
[anon] “The simple fact is huge numbers of Iraqi Hated Saddam and Baathist rule much much more then many urban Iraqi realized ... and these peoples voices are now being heard.”
That’s true, many if not most Iraqis did not like Saddam. The irony is, the Occupation and invasion have so destroyed Iraq that these same people are wishing he were still in power, not because they like him, but because YOUR rule is so awful. Congratulations … it must have been quite an effort to rule a country worse than Saddam, but YOU managed, and then some.
[BT] “Anonymous, you need to wear your glasses. He said “People of Iraq” not “leaders of Iraq”. Your hatred to Iraqi people made you unable to recognize words. By the way, glasses are cheap in Iraq. I can ask my friends to make one for you and send it to you. You don’t need to worry about the high prices and the unjust health care here in the US.”
LOL … :*D
[rhus] “France has actually fought the most international wars since 1946 (along with the UK). The US & USSR were tid for second”
I suggest you re-examine your figures. I’ve just looked at the .pdf from the source, and it has the UK at 21, France 19, US at 15 and Russia at 9 wars. Frankly, I’d like to see the actual conflicts counted. The numbers sound a bit dodgy to me.
bruno: "I suggest you re-examine your figures. I’ve just looked at the .pdf from the source, and it has the UK at 21, France 19, US at 15 and Russia at 9 wars. Frankly, I’d like to see the actual conflicts counted. The numbers sound a bit dodgy to me. "
OK, France and the UK are still in the lead, but you're right- the US isn't tied with Russia. My bad. Here's the list you were asking for.
Also from the report, this page shows chart, table, and graph after chart, table, and graph that does not support the view of a warmongering US running roughshod over the world. Just for example, this about international wars and this about civil wars shows curiously downward-pointed trends.
BT, great job on collecting these interviews and putting them all in one post.
RhusLancia ... RLPfPMPD is just about the best idea I have heard. It is brilliant. Not only for the way it affects the future but also because of the way it affects the present.
I liked Zeyad's response. And thanks for this survey, TOB.
On the next survey, though, I think you should modify the "do you think American troops should withdraw" question. Myself, I think they should have withdrawn at the end of 2003, but my opinion, and in fact nobody's opinion but Bush's, counted. I think a better question is, what conditions would you like to see in Iraq that would lead to the withdrawal of the American troops. Conditions in Iraq and troop withdrawal are convergent issues. Zeyad's list is a good outline of what has to be happening to get the Americans out of Iraq - and the emphasis has to be on negotiation, ceasefire, a concentrated effort on lowering the violence, self-policing by all groups (no political group, insurgent, governmental, american, whatever its policies, should countenance kidnapping, rape and robbery for profit, for instance) and a willingness to change dysfunctional governance rules that have been put in place over the last four years.
Thanks, moron99!
warning
This is a very important message about an Islamic terroristic grand Attack.
کیر بزمجه عربستان و مصر تو کس ننه هرکی سیده.
سنده ملت جهان تو کس ننه حافظان شریعت اسلام
کیر خوک تو کس ننه فاحشه => پاسدار یا بسیجی یا اطلاعاتی یا جاسوس اسلام یا سید یا حزب اللهی
گوه خوک تو ننه امام حسین شد امام حسن
سنده شیطان تو حلق محمد رسول الله قرآن شد.
خرطوم فیل تو کس ننه پیامبر اسلام.
الله اکبر
خامنه ای عنتر
مرگ بر دوست ولایت فقیه
درود بر آمریکا
We will have every Hizbollah women fucked by dogs.
We will send Phallus of ours into ass of All priests moslems.
We will have Khamenei and Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad and Khatami and Akbar Ganji fucked by a great penis Of donkey and whale .
We will fuck all foreign government which help mullah.
کیر سگ تو کس ننه سید اولاد پیغمبر و کس ننه خود پیامبر اسلام.
کیر خوک تو کس ننه امام حسین.
کیر خر تو کس ننه شیعیان.
صلوات: الله و کیر خر تو کس ننه محمد و آل محمد.
This is a beautiful cultural message for you.
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