Since the Lancet report showed up, newspapers, blogs, and TV stations rushed to talk and analyze how terrible the situation in
What I think is that it does not matter if the report is accurate or not. What matters is the fact that the security situation is going from bad to worse, if not the worst. More than three years have passed and things changed.
To see how the situation these days changed life and opinions of bloggers, I have emailed some Iraqi bloggers and asked them several questions about their opinion with respect to the situation in
Before I leave you to read what the bloggers wrote, I would love to mention what my Iraqi Blogger and friend, Iraqi Konfused Kid, wrote concerning the latest discussion held by Iraqi bloggers via emails. Read all about it here.
The blogs are listed alphabetically:
24 Steps to Liberty
When have you started blogging?
August 2005
How did your perceptions change since?
I don’t think I’ve changed dramatically. I do believe though that when I discuss something in the blog now, I put into consideration that there are more angles to approach a thought. And I now try to discuss as many angles as I can so I don’t become biased in what I write. Also, I now think twice before I write about something, because I have a wide base of different readers, whom I respect and appeal to in my writings.
Compared to the current situation in
Before the war, I had fun. I had my family and friends around me. I had a plan for tomorrow. My heart did not ache. But I had no future.
NOW, I don’t have my friends around me because they left the country, and I did too. My heart aches all the time. And if I were in
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Yes. The war was totally worth it. Why? Because I now decide what I want to do with my life, not the dictator [I am talking about myself, someone who is trying to have a better future and not wait for the Marjiya to tell him what to do.] And also because let it be once and forever, the Iraqis now know how much the hate to live with each other and how much the will lose if the DON’T live with each other. They can decide now.
Chikitita
When have you started blogging?
May 2006
How did your perceptions change since?
I'm afraid they have changed 180 degrees. I used to be full of hope of a better tomorrow, but the aftermath of Feb. 22 has dragged all my foolish hopes down the drain. It was the time I had to wake up to the fact that
Compared to the current situation in
It is hard to compare. Saddam's era has its pros and cons and so has the post invasion era. As for the former, I hated the fact that we the Iraqi people must worship an idol, who wanted to control our lives and suppress our freedom, but it was no big deal, it was easy for me to cope and go with the flow. The latter on the other hand proved to some Iraqis that idols are not hard to break and it felt good to slander the despot without worrying about possible minders. But with time, the invasion spawned hordes of looters, blood-thirsty gangsters and unnecessary spiteful sectarianism and bloodbaths, which have been so unheard of when the Baathists ruled.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
It was seemingly worth it in terms of showing despots that they are not the gods they have been driven to believe they are. What it did actually was encourage others to be just as vile, and as all Iraqis say in unison, "we used to have one Saddam, now we have a million more vicious replicas".
When have you started blogging?
I started blogging in November 2005.
How did your perceptions change since?
My friend introduced to the Iraqi blogg sphere, which is completely different from the mainstream media i used to encounter all the time. it opened my eyes to a lot more, i heard and read about many events that you don’t read or hear about in the media. new opinions and ideas, new perceptions which we can compare to achieve a some kind of solution.
Compared to the current situation in Iraq, how different was it before the war?
I’m not living in Iraq now, sadly. But from what i gather it is horrible out there. it is completely different now. Back then we were safe, on a personal level, nobody ever felt fear of going out to the street. We were leading a normal life, the only bad thing is that our rights were denied. But now, we think we have our rights, which we don’t. We think we can practice them, but we cant. we think we have freedom and democracy, but freedom and democracy are won, achieved, not given. That’s why we don’t appreciate it.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
the war was not worth it at all. For one simple reason, it didn’t achieve it goal. And that is for a good reason too, it was a lie. The whole thing was a sham. We are way behind where we were in 2003. Thins war cause a lot of wounds, that won’t heal easily.
Ihath
When have you started blogging?
October, 2003
When I started blogging I had a clear idea of what I wanted to say,Now I feel all confused.
Compared to the current situation in
I lump my answer to this question with the answer to the question below.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Hard question to answer. I have to admit that there are certainbenefits to the removal of the Saddam regime, even in my personallife. For example, I recently published a book titled "Don't Shoot!... I have another story to tell you". There are certain parts in thatbook I wouldn't have been able to write if Saddam was still in power.Although, I live in
Iraqi Konfused Kid
When have you started blogging?
July 2005.
How did your perceptions change since?
At first, like most Iraqis, I was just going about my daily life, I was completely ignorant about such things as to who are the current members of the IGC, or the names of the ministers, I used to hear about the important names here and there but basically I was just a normal citizen who just wants to look for his daily bread, however as the days grew I was forced to become interested as the level of internal tensions grew beyond comprehension and became impossible to ignore with the death of thousands of normal citizens, the deportation, the increasing awareness of sects - basically feelings of despair, and most importantly disgust has replaced my neutrality.
Compared to the current situation in
People could walk around streets safely, there was more power and water, you used to fear only one person but now you fear so many, even in your own area you cannot feel safe, not a single minute is spent with complete comfort as the dangers around you are boundless: militas, roadside bombs, et all.
Basically, It's a jungle out there.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Hard to answer, everyone wanted to get rid of Saddam, as for me, I do not question the initaitive of war itself - even though it is based on complete fabrications, because it was supposed to help us create a modern democratic country in which we could relieve those long hard days of toil, but regarding American (and Iraqi) policies and actions after the war which have caused this to happen (most importantly: divisions along sectarian and ethnic lines, disbanding the army) I strongly disapprove of. I do not blame Americans alone in this, but they have the biggest share of them as they have jumped headlong into a society with complex undercurrents they should have known everything about, they deserve every bit of the blame because they started the war, not me. I support their cause for my own reasons, I do not support them like a blind sheep that keeps on babbling about gibberish such as liberty and democracy and a New World Order, we both have common interests: I support a moderate Islamic state that is not based on force, and I believe the only way to achieve that is through democratic ventures.
Micho
When have you started blogging?
September 2005.
Compared to the current situation in
Differences before and after the war are uncountable. Before the war, we used to live better. All Iraqis in all ages were able to live normally like going to schools, having the feeling that we have a future and a goal that encourages us to move forward. We used to hang out with family and friends on holidays everywhere. The human being by nature is social and cannot live alone. We used to go out safe as there was no killings, assassinations or sectarian differences like what is happening now. There was no fear or loss. Now fear haunted all of us with no exceptions. We cannot go out during the day or night. After the war,
Before the war, we did not know what freedom that
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
I don’t see any logical reason for this war. We do not want freedom. We did not have the mass destruction weapons as they claim. Even if there were [WMD], I don’t think any country is able to attack
Miraj
When have you started blogging?
January, 2006
How did your perceptions change since?
I faced reality by realizing that our role as Iraqi bloggers is bigger than we have thought and that majority of the people who read our blogs were unaware of the facts and the bitter reality that the war dragged on us. Having said that, I found majority of our readers who supported the war are still insisting that
Compared to the current situation in
Honestly, I've been very careful not to compare between the two eras as much as I want to because every time I open my mouth about the conditions before the war I find someone accusing me of being a ba'athist. If I was a ba'athist you wouldn't find me here in
Anyway, despite that before the war I used to beg Allah for a miracle to take Saddam and all his gang members away from us and despite the pain I felt when saw these strangers who invaded our streets and buildings I felt that it was the only way to get rid of him and feel free.
On a personal level, even if I couldn't manage to work for a good company for Saddam's Mukhabart used to control everything and at that time the good jobs used to go mostly to the people with the strong contacts and despite the brutal sanctions imposed on us by the USA , I never had a security problem, I never saw a dead body, I never had to deal with a friend who was raped ,I never had to freak out when ever I try to call a friend with no answer thinking the worse might happened, I never had a problem with what I wear, I used to go out with a bunch of girls up till 10 pm to take long walks either in Alrubai'e street, Mansour or Karrada, I used to take my mother and sister and go visit our aunt and get back home real late, three women in a car in the night in Baghdad (now the idea it self is a good base for a horror movie!!!) .The electricity back then was far better comparing to now, other services were not easy to have but I never had to stand in line for 7 hours to fill my car with fuel nor my parents had to stay for 4 hours on their feet to get oil to the heaters in winter. Long list my friend!
Now we have lost in three years more than we lost in 30 years. You do not have to dig under ground to look for hidden mascaras, the dead bodies are thrown in the streets, a huge operation was preformed against doctors, engineers, writers, journalists, university prophesiers to execute everything that is good in my country. Then if that was not enough, terrorists were encouraged to enter the country from the country's widest open doors, a corrupt government took over and a civil war was provoked. A lot of people fell in that game due to the lack of education since all the educated people were either killed or emigrated from the country and not forgetting the huge gap created by the sanctions which were on educational level as well.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
It was not worth it at all for the reasons above. Adding to that , after more than three years we still hear Saddam making his speeches from behind bars and leading a war by directing his followers while the world is seeing the so called democratic jury on their T.V sets thinking that
Now we do not just have all the miseries I mentioned above but again, we have Saddam
When have you started blogging?
I have started blogging a year and a half ago, and I've been blogging non-stop ever since that time.
How did your perceptions change since?
My perception changed widely since I started writing in my blog; I got to know more about the world around me, and I was astonished about how little the other people in the world knew about Iraq and Iraqis. And one of the reasons that made me continued blogging is to let the world know more about the social and daily life of Iraqi people inside, and now outside
Compared to the current situation in
The situation in
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Not at all! As I said somewhere else before, there could be other ways to get rid of Saddam rather than launching a war against
Nabil’s Blog
When have you started blogging?
I started blogging in Nov. 2003
How did your perceptions change since?
(At first I was pro war.. now I'm anti war)
Compared to the current situation in
Its was much safer before the war.. I mean from the security side..we used to stay out side our houses all the nights.. now we have to be at home.. at 6 pm.. cause after that time... it would be dangerous on you to go out in the streets.. I want to say.. that we used to live our life... now we can't roam where ever we want.. its like we're locked up in a very big and horrible prison.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
It was worth it from the side.. that we are over with Saddam dictatorship..(even though the situation now is incomparable with the situation when Saddam was is power.. it was way better)..and its not worth it from the side that we lost our safety.. now criminals, gangsters and kidnappers.. roam in the streets.. do whatever they want.. and there is no law to stop them.. as well as for the Islamic militias.
Najma
When have you started blogging?
June 2004
How did your perceptions change since?
I thought Americans were more understanding! This changes entirely as I started getting comments.
I have stopped watching the news because I got tired of hearing about the killing and theft, of freedom and democracy, and of our new so-called government.
I grew confused over which side to take.. There's constant brain-washing in my inbox and it's hard to keep being the old me.
Compared to the current situation in
Too different.. Other than higher salaries, the internet and the mobile, nothing became better.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Not! For the above reasons.. I'd rather live under Saddam's regime and have peace of mind than live under whatever regime there is now and lose family members, security, peace of mind and myself.
I might have responded differently a year ago, and I surely would've responded differently 3 years ago.. but
Sunshine
When have you started blogging?
I started my blog two years ago.
How did your perceptions change since?
It changed a lot , I became more mature , and feel like I have a mission to do , blogging became the most effective thing in my life , I spend my spare time writing posts , answering , & reading my e-mails , people E-mail me saying that after they read my blog their standpoint changed , and they realized that Iraqis are not different people , it makes me happy , and I will continue what I am doing.
Compared to the current situation in
Before the war , I used to visit my relatives with my family, and stay there till midnight , we used to go to picnics , & parties , I used to celebrate my birthday with my friends , New year evenings were very special and charming, in which we used to play bingo , monopoly and say jokes, and of course prepare delicious meals and desserts , now we can't do any of these things , our life isn't bright anymore, it is full of danger , fear , and losses.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Well , when I think about the war , I remember all the people I know who were killed , and my relatives who became orphans and widows , my friend who lost her dad , her 2 uncles , 3 cousins , and her aunt's husband , my uncle who was killed by US troops , my relative R who was shot to death inside his house because of absence of security , my aunt and relatives who left Iraq to avoid the dangerous situation , the absence of electricity , fuel , security , the so many terrorists who badly affected the Islam repute by their crimes in the name of Islam , and the list doesn't end , the answer is obviously
NO IT IS NOT WORTHY the only good thing is that Sadam and his regime are jail …but many new Sadam's came to the governorship… internet connection is another good thing..we can now communicate with the others.. ..But Two years ago , I was very optimistic , and thought I will have the perfect life , I was happy and full of hope when the us troops entered Iraq ,I thought at that time that the war is worthy , now I changed my mind .. our life is turning form bad to worse.. The people who died won't be back , the buildings ,the hotels ,the casinos and the place I like won't be back as it was in the past ,the ancient places , Samara and al- malweea is gone for ever,. .. I am very frustrated , and confused ..
Tara
When have you started blogging?
In March 2005.
How did your perceptions change since?
I was regarding the war as liberation at that time. Now I know it’s an occupation!
I hoped that things will be fixed after a short time but now I think leaving the country is the right thing to do, I mean I should leave the country as the American do not want to leave !
Compared to the current situation in
We were in a big prison & now we are in a huge mess. So, which is better?
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Not worth it. All the deaths, the injured & handicapped people & all those who had forced to leave their homes are big price for what we got today.
Then Some
When have you started blogging?
I started blogging on the 23rd of August, 2004.
How did your perceptions change since?
My perceptions of the situation did not change at all. I expected this to happen. Call me "pessimist", i prefer "realist".
Compared to the current situation in Iraq, how different was it before the war?
Yin-yang. Night-and-day. Or let's say: any horrible things we had in Iraq, now we have it 100-fold more. Before there was one dictator, one guy to fear, one side to watch out for. now? there are at least 100 mini-dictators running around, both Sunni and shi'a.
You need only two guys, three rifles, and a bit of guts, to enforce your will on some neighborhood.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Worth it? Not-at-all.
Why? It was based on false pretexts. (WMDs- false, Qaida link- false)
It destabilized the whole region, not just my country, and hastened the appearance of the iranian/syrian/salafi/you-name-it threat.
Three years on, and America itself has not become any safer.
Three years on, Iraq is not better in ANY field which the invading forces said it will be in. democracy? are you kidding me?buildings and structures? great figures on paper, but please show me their location.. security? HAH!
etc..etc..ad nauseum ad infinitum.
i hope nobody starts preaching to me how essential it is to brave the conditions and tough it out and crap like that. i am not in iraq at the moment yet i have been there for the last three years, and i will return to it in the next few days.
When have you started blogging?
Started blogging in March 2006.
How did your perceptions change since?
I had not known that other Iraqi bloggers were out there before Istarted blogging. After I started blogging, I did a search and foundother blogs, and that really opened my eyes to things that wereoccuring in Iraq that I was not aware of, and it also showed me thatwhat I was experiencing was alot more commonplace than I was aware of. Blogging has also made me aware of everything occuring here, makingme take in all the details so that I can record them for peopleoutside Iraq who are not aware of what is happening here.
Compared to the current situation in Iraq, how different was it before the war?
I did not live here before the war. Only came for a short visit.Back then, in June/July 2001, I was able to stay outside the housetill 1 am at night, since the war, that is impossible. We were ableto go out for social activities, sit on the river; allimpossible/difficult now. Electricity was much more available then,almost nonexistant now. And of course, the small issue of securityand life, people didn't have thousands of stories of kidnappings andmurders to talk about back then. They were basically safe in theirhomes, if they stayed away from politics.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
This is a very difficult question to answer. Saddam was a tyrant,no doubt about that. People were afraid of him and of opposing him.People had to leave their homes for political differences and otherswere imprisoned/killed. But what is happening now is much worse forthe average person. So many more people are affected by the killingsand random murders that happen by the tens every day. I honestlydon't know that it was worth it, in the short run, at least. Maybe inthe long run, but by then, so many thousands will have died innocently
Zappy
When have you started blogging?
April 2006
How did your perceptions change since?
I always knew that it would get worse i.e., 17 separate states also i prayed that I was wrong; I wanted to hint the simple differences between cultures and civilizations.
Compared to the current situation in
That’s difficult, I hate Saddam and was always annoyed by the Baathies, the UN Sanctions, the difficulties of travel and finding a decent job, but I regret to say it was much safer and we were much happier, nowadays well it’s a total chaotic mess of blood flesh and bones.
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
Yes it was worth it, maybe one day we get back on our feet and the average iraqi understands that Islamic Parties are not different from the Baathists. Else we will be like the Iranian who fled
Zeyad
When have you started blogging?
I started the blog in mid-October 2003.
How did your perceptions change since?
I initially supported the war, as I thought we had a good chance to establish a democratic government in
Compared to the current situation in
We knew how to avoid trouble. There was no fear of being abducted on your way to work or while shopping the market, as long as you did nothing wrong. No fear of being stopped at a random checkpoint and killed because of your last name or because of what you looked like. You were able to work the system to your advantage. Your family and friends were safe. True, there was a lower standard of living but basic services were running and you were safe. There was still no hope for a better future and we were all desperate, but is it really different now?
Do you think the war was worth it or not? Why?
I'm afraid to answer that question.
68 Comments:
Wow, that sums Iraq up in a nutshell. Iraqis wanted Saddam gone and wanted a Democracy( The INC, but now they don't want to take personal responsiblity for what happened. Get the troops out.
Great post, BT!
Thanks.
Is this something we could see more of? For example:
* what should be done now?
* when should US forces withdraw?
etc?
Thank you very much for contacting the Iraqi bloggers to get their opinions. It is a sad commentary on the U.S. effort. I was against the war from the start and regret all the death and suffering. I will link to your blog in future as well as some of the other bloggers you mention who were not on my regular list. I wish you all safety.
treasure, In my still unrefined heart, I will confess to thoughts similar to 24 Steps,
HOWEVER, to ask the question: "Do you think the war was worth it?" Really, I think is spiritually unsound. Because we can't change the past.
Secondly, I don't know the economic and social strata represented by your sampling. But as I have stated in earlier comments the real people to aske about their hopes and dreams and fears are the people for example, in Sadr city, and poor people elsewhere. they represent the fuel for the continuation of the burning. These people seemed to have no hope before and are making a vow not to be put back in the box after the war. They seem not to have been noticed by the upper layers of society. As an American I hear them saying, "I'm mad as hell and I'M not going to take it any more!!!!" (what movie is this line from? Wall Street?)
I wonder if you have you read any studies of the Russian Revolution?
Regarding the study, as you say, the number are not really important. But don't be too harsh on ITM. They have their rights to speak, in a healthy democracy. If you carefully read their posts, it is not so simple as some here imply, Though granted it is a basic support for the American activities, because the outcome will be what we all want, I think. I wince at their unabashed pro-American comments sometimes, but ...we certainly don't want the whole affair in Iraq to go to hell, just so we can say, "See I told you it would back in xxxxx (some date)!"
Treasure,
Thank you. That was an excellent survey. There is one more question you might have asked:
Who is to blame for the current state of affairs in Iraq?
Baghdad Treasure, this was a really, really good post. The idea of putting the Iraqi bloggers together answering the most important questions about what is happening today in Iraq was a good one. Thanks to all the people who gave their opinions to BT, I enjoyed reading them and understanding what position you are all writing from.
You should do more of these surveys from time to time, maybe on different subjects as well.
BTW, I agree with the basic stance of the bloggers – namely, it’s a good thing Hussein is gone, but that to pay this price forever and anon is way too high. Sooner or later the occupation and the sectarianism has to end, or Iraq itself will end. And nobody, outside of a group of very ruthless people, wants that to happen.
I love the brave Iraqi bloggers for their honesty and diversity. I think history will celebrate these blogs and the rich humanity they reflect.
I certainly don't always agree with every blogger, but that's part of the beauty of it.
I'm sorry for every selfrighteous American who has spouted propaganda and brainwashing in your comment sections. They don't recognize their own little dictatorship of trying to tell you what to think! And they don't understand the freedom they claim to be granting you.
The irony would be laughable if things weren't such a hell hole in Iraq.
When someone decides to make a movie about the bloggers, I pray you all have happy endings!
seb
Anonymous,
“but now they don't want to take personal responsibility for what happened.”
If Iraqis don’t want to take responsibility as you claimed, they would have not insisted on going to schools and work and insisted on going on in their lives to get a better education and future. If they don’t want to take responsibility, they would have not written anything on their blogs to do something for their countries even if it is through a blog. Despite everything happening, Iraqis are still doing their best and hoping for a better future, a future that is not like the one they were promised with.
“Get the troops out.”
That’s the dream of all Iraqis whether it happens sooner or later.
RhusLancia and Origional Jeff,
Thanks for your questions. I urge Iraqi bloggers to answer these questions.
-what should be done now?
-when should US forces withdraw?
-Who is to blame for the current state of affairs in Iraq?
Edo,
“But as I have stated in earlier comments the real people to aske about their hopes and dreams and fears are the people for example, in Sadr city, and poor people elsewhere.”
I agree with you. But at the same time, I believe that even people in Sadr City are not happy with what is happening now. They are being killed in hundreds by car bombs and other attacks. I went to Sadr City several times when I was working in Baghdad. Most of the people I saw there were blaming the government and have a special "hatred" to the U.S. troops there despite the fact that they were the first ones who welcomed them when Saddam regime's fell.
“But don't be too harsh on ITM. They have their rights to speak, in a healthy democracy.”
When I criticized the ITM, it was not specifically about the Lancet report entry. Their other entries are so typical to what Bush and his henchmen say. Sometimes, I beleive they are paid by the White House. The image of "terrorists" only is applied in their posts over and over. In my opinion, it is not only the terrorists who are destroying Iraq. It is an internal civil war where militias and armed groups are fighting each other by killing innocent people. They focus on things that only Bush says while other important issues take a small space in their blog which I and other Iraqi bloggers believe is something shameful. We need to help our country, not by supporting the monkey who destroyed it.
Have you seen them criticizing what happened in Abu Ghraib, Haditha, or Mahmoudiya? They did! but they put the blame on Iraqis!!!
Bruno,
“You should do more of these surveys from time to time, maybe on different subjects as well.”
I will :)
hi BT, i do certainly like this post a lot! bests to you!
BT, I am glad that you and The Kid have posted the thoughts of so many Iraqi bloggers! I think that what you have both done is very significant and I hope that your posts will get some attention from major U.S. media outlets.
In your comment above you said that you sometimes think that ITM is paid by the White House. I visited ITM for the first time yesterday and my impression was much the same! I wondered if ITM was a production of the CIA or the U.S. Army. I asked in The Kid's blog if any Iraqi bloggers had met ITM's writer, or had any contact of any sort with him. Considering how well connected Iraqi bloggers are, as shown by this post and The Kid's, it seems to me that if ITM is really written by an Iraqi, somebody would be able to confirm that!
-Interesting forward I recieved~
"You gotta love Robin Williams......
Even if he's nuts!
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan
What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up
And repeat this message.
Robin Williams' plan...
(Hard to argue with this logic!)
"I see a lot of people yelling for peace
But I have not heard of a plan for
Peace. So, here's one plan."
1) "The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs,
Past & present.
You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein,
And the rest of those "good ole boys", we will never "interfere" again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines.
They don't want us there.
We would station troops at our borders.
No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave
We'll give them a free trip home.
After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately,
Regardless of whom or where they are.
They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in.
If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here.
Asylum would never be available to anyone.
We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.
5) No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.
6) The US will make a strong effort
to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while .
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil.
If they don't like it, we'll go someplace else.
They can go somewhere else to sell their production.
(About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of us know that what we give them is stolen or given to the army.
The people who need it most get very little, if anything.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and? fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
11) The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...
Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?
The Statue of Liberty is no longer
Saying "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.
She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want a piece of me?' ""
thanks BT. thanks everyone, i am going to be visiting some of the sites. i think many americans will be interested in the post and meeting iraqi bloogers who are new to them. unfortunately it is very clear to me, because i have visited quite a variety of blogs in my time, you all are hit w/a significnt amount of the extreme far right wingers, who i personally think are of the troll paid variety (that is because i live here and i know what is 'normal' in american dialogue. i can understand why iraqi bloggers would be targeted.
as a result you are not talking to many normal americans. i think your voices need to be heard. i will pass around this link and hopefully we can start a wider dialogue.
i would also like to say, i am very very sorry for what my country has done to yours. from my heart to yours....
Team Iraq has already killed seventy american troops this month.
Go team.
The world wanders in circles while "Simon and the Lefties" (tm) continue to speak the truth.
What else is new...
Hey, Saddam is still alive...it's not too late to bring him back and the wonderful, peaceful Iraq that the evil bushitler/cheny/rumsfeld monster destroyed.
I'm all for cutting you losers loose. I was for the war to. After reading the response from this group of whiners that are willing to trade thier freedom for security. You're not worthy of an other US soldier's death.
we should just wall you in let you self destruct...
Free saddam now and put him back in power.
At least you'll only have one death squad master of ceremonies...
Treasure,
1) I understand your point. Sadr City folks are basically no more enlightened than.... (me?). My comment is really directed towards the future.
These people have to be given PRIMARY consideration.
2) Regarding Maleki and the gov. I basically followed your lead in hoping for improvement. Now in hindsight, it appears he was handicapped from the start on boundaries that he could interfere with. The ministries are private fiefdoms, under primary allegiance, not to a central government, but to their constituents.
The same condition was somewhat similar for the US. The conditions were less harsh than in Iraq but still it took 8 YEARS for the US major politicians in the years before the US CONSTITUTION was finally signed. It wasn't until the major powers of Pennsyvania and Virginia (I believe, I have forgotten the details) saw for the sake of the union that the rights of the smaller states must be protected. When Virginia and Pennsyvania threw their support for the Constitution, the final negotiation phase began resulting in the signing.
SO WHAT CAN WE EXPECT IN IRAQ? You and the Iraqi bloggers know better than I.
Final comment: What do I bring to the table in my comments? Basically I have a series of guiding religous principles which are unique to anyone, Iraqi or American, as far as I know, who comments here. It is from this perspective that I make my comments. I am sure my perspective overlapps with sincere Moslem people of international good will and American humanists, but the viewpoint I have basically studied for about 24 years goes far beyond anything I have seen presented, unfortunately. For I earnestly pray that my opinions will one day cease to be unique and that a large number will share and go beyond mine primarily in their deeds, and also in their understanding of the truth.
Edo River rising
One question you forgot to ask is where these people lived. Saddam's treatment of people had a lot to do with where they lived. For example I'd doubt you get a single No answer to your question about whether or not the war was worth it from the Kurds and very few Nos from the Shia.
Anonymous (4:09 am),
You write: "I'm all for cutting you losers loose. I was for the war to. After reading the response from this group of whiners that are willing to trade thier freedom for security. You're not worthy of an other US soldier's death."
When you have to trade life for political freedom, yeah, you're going to choose not only your life, but your father/brother/uncles' life over your supposed right to political freedom.
There is no comparison between death/kidnappings/constant fear/insecurity and an imaginary right to oppose the govt.
Americans once had to decide whether to continue to live under British rule, or pledge their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to rebelling against the unfair rule and taxes of the British in order to acquire self autonomy and yes freedom.
Americans are the real deal, Fatima. When they say that they will fight to the death, that is exactly what they will do simply because they Believe. As their forefathers believed when they signed the Declaration of Independence, and thus put their necks in the garrote for if the British ever caught them, they would be hanged as rebels. Their properties were seized, their homes destroyed, and their families shattered. The power and vitality of America is a direct consequence of the will and endurance that American ancestors showed in the past. American power does not accrue from Hollywood, money, or technological widgets in bombs. Most people seem to be under this misapprehension for some reason.
Americans believe as much in freedom as Muslims believe in Islam and Allah.
More than that, Americans believe that their fate is not pre-determined, that it is not the will of God or the US Constitution that we be this way or that. Americans, at least Jacksonian Americans, will kill as many people as it takes to secure liberty and sacrifice as many of their family members as it takes to secure liberty.
This is true belief, and it is an image totally opposite from the decadent and greedy American that most of the world sees. It is the core strength, unobscured by illusion.
When Americans talk about Iraqis not taking personal responsibility, they are not talking about what treasure wrote about. Meaning, work and school, insisting on better conditions.
While I may not agree with the accussation that Iraqis are lazy shiftabouts, I do understand the American perspective. Americans see a people, who are more ready to blame the all powerful and omnipotent Americans, than they are to use the resources and power at their disposal in order to better their living conditions. It is all about demanding what Americans can do, what Americans cannot do, and what someone else has not done for me. This kind of Arab mentality is totally alien to Americans, of most stripes. Americans take matters into their own hands, whether it is by playing the system or taking personal initiative to prevent being cheated by the system. Getting out and improving on what they see as problems, via political grassroots organization and voting.
Banding together as a community, forming a solution, and then demanding the politicians accept that solution and implement it. That is the American way.
And for most Americans, they do not truely understand how it can be any other way. It is not true for all of Americans, but it is true in general.
The American military, if given the order, could begin purging the militias and gangs in all of Iraq. But this would mean overriding the Iraqi government, and the will and desires of tribes and the Iraqi people.
After all, what do Iraqis really want. Do they want America the occupier to solve all of their problems, from basic services to hostage taking, crime, and too much wetness after a storm?
Or do they want to decide for themselves how to solve these problems with Iraqi resources?
It seems everybody is confused. They want America to provide protection, but they don't want America the occupier. They want basic services restored, but they don't want to do it themselves without help. They want the violence to be solved, but they talk mostly about their distaste and shame at how Iraq the Model echoes the lines about freedom.
If you don't want freedom, then America can take back Iraq's sovereignty, impose martial law, and you can have security the old fashioned way. Through the iron fist and bodies hanging along the streets of Baghdad.
But for some reason, a lot of people would protest such things as being too violent. They want security, but so long as not too many people get killed to get it. Iraq is a big place, I'm sure there are lots of people with different views. Who should America listen to?
Many American soldiers and bloggers have wrote about how Sunnis and Shia don't click with Americans, but the Kurds do. The reason is simple. The Kurds have the psychology of Americans. They are willing to die and to kill for their beliefs. They are eager to do things for themselves, instead of complaining and blaming whoever is available or has power over them. They don't talk about inshallah, and they don't think of things in terms of security, but in terms of dignity and liberty.
Look, America could have had a lot of security in the Revolutionary War, so long as the people stayed at home and obeyed the British. We didn't do that. If you want Iraq to become strong as a nation, then I'm sorry to say but you'll have to survive the crucible of war and death.
America didn't acquire our power and prosperity by accident, after all. We killed for it, millions of people has America killed in WWI and WWII, to acquire the status we have. It is not something paid for by money, or bribes, or favors. But earned by blood. Ours and our enemies.
Their other entries are so typical to what Bush and his henchmen say.
Bush is not your President. He is not the one who decides if Al Sadr gets an axe through his head or an invitation to the government of Iraq. Bremer wasn't your President either.
There is a lot of hostility and repressed anger at people who aren't your elected leaders. At some level, you know you can't do anything about them. But while most Americans adapt to this angst by personal action, Iraqis seem to be caught in a zone where they aren't or can't do anything.
The only question is. Why do you show more hostility towards the leaders of other nations, than you show to the leaders of your own nation? You do realize that you always refer to your government as "the government", but you refer to America's leaders specifically as Bush and his henchemen. Why do you know our leaders more intimately than you mention the names of your own?
Have you seen them criticizing what happened in Abu Ghraib, Haditha, or Mahmoudiya? They did! but they put the blame on Iraqis!!!
At some level in your mind and heart, you know that America didn't get to where we are and have won the wars we did, because we blamed other people. America has always blamed Americans, first, foremost, and only. Even anti-Americans in America blame America first.
Some sees this as our weakness, but the same self-criticism inherent in a functional democracy is also a great strength in war and peace-time.
People living under a dictatorship are used to feeling impotent rage at the dictator. A lot of Iraqi bloggers say that they didn't like Saddam and wanted him to be gone. But do they actually realize that they talk with more rage and venome against Bush than they do against Saddam? There is a psychological reason for that. If you lived under Saddam, then you could think as much as you wanted about how to kill Saddam, but you could never express it. That was the road you had to walk, one small deviation, and you were gone.
Now, people know in their heart that they are free to criticize whom you wish. But instead of saying every hated thing they have in their heart to Saddam, they say it instead about Bush.
Or maybe Bush is the safe topic to hate in Iraq. Because if you criticize some of the Islamics, they just might kill you as with Saddam.
So do you really think that hating Bush is ever going change the quality of your life? Is hating America ever going to make yourself feel better? Is despising those who support America's activities in Iraq, also of more benefit to you than attempting to kill all those thugs you see out there on the streets?
If you want the thugs gone, send Bush a letter telling him to stop listening to his advisers in the State Department. Tell Bush to listen to American Jacksonians. Because when he does, there will be no chaos and violence in Iraq, because the order will have been given to get rid of the Islamic fundamentalists, Al Sadr, Sunni Baathists, and AL Qaeda Sunnis through martial law and extra-Iraq extra-judicial executions.
Is it so hard to believe that some Iraqis might actually feel good will towards America. Who appreciate their allies and hates their enemies, as one should? It is not just Iraq the Model you know who are bootlickers to America. 90% of the Kurds in Iraq, are also strong supporters of America. Do you really want to compare how much Iraqi bloggers have lost compared to the Kurds? Who exactly are traitors to Iraq, those who attack Iraq's allies or those who attack Iraq's enemies?
David,
“I asked in The Kid's blog if any Iraqi bloggers had met ITM's writer, or had any contact of any sort with him.”
I know someone very close to the ITM brothers. He told me “they don’t believe in what they write.” They told him they are doing this for “fame”…
“it seems to me that if ITM is really written by an Iraqi, somebody would be able to confirm that!”
Yes, they are 100% Iraqis unfortunately but their intentions are not!
Anonymous, [10:31 PM]
“No foreign "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.”
Well, you should address this to your country’s military command which recruits “students” in their twenties to invade and destroy other countries!!
“Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil.
If they don't like it, we'll go someplace else.
They can go somewhere else to sell their production.
(About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)”
How naive you are to think that if America stops getting oil from Saudi Arabia, things will change!!!! There are so many non-oil countries that beg for a drop. Let your country decide to stop getting oil from that region and see how you’ll end up begging near the closest traffic light in your neighborhood!
“If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need.”
At least Allah responds to the prayers of His people unlike others who just keep promising and not fulfilling their promise.
“Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace.”
My suggestion is to remove the UN HQ to another planet because there is no benefit from such a nasty powerless organization. Maybe the can deal with space creatures because they couldn’t solve any problem on earth.
“All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.”
The ugly remains ugly even if he has a plastic surgery!
“The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE...”
Weird! Isn’t that the language that was origionally speaken by the English people? Do you have a language? I mean original language? For me, I was born in an Arab country whose people speak Arabic!
Anonymous, [4:07 AM]
“Team Iraq has already killed seventy american troops this month.”
Team America has already killed hundreds of thousands since they occupied Iraq.
“Hey, Saddam is still alive...it's not too late to bring him back and the wonderful, peaceful Iraq that the evil bushitler/cheny/rumsfeld monster destroyed.”
We all hate Saddam. When we said it was better under Saddam, we did not mean we love Saddam. I think if we bring another strong secular leader to Iraq, most of the problems will be solved. My suggestion is Ayad Allawi is the best for this position. But what could we do if Bush insists on putting the radical extreme leaders to run the country?
“You're not worthy of an other US soldier's death.”
If you are talking about the soldiers’ death worthiness, take this: the soldier’s death does not worth a tear fell on a child’s and a mother’s cheek.
“we should just wall you in let you self destruct...”
Yes, leave without fixing the destruction and see how the history will mention the disgrace and shame you caused in the world.”
Edo,
“Now in hindsight, it appears he was handicapped from the start on boundaries that he could interfere with.”
He is not handicapped. He pretends to be so. He is smart enough not to threaten Hakim or Sadr. He can’t! Because he sympathizes with them.
“SO WHAT CAN WE EXPECT IN IRAQ? You and the Iraqi bloggers know better than I.”
More death, destruction and hatred to the freedom that the Americans brought. Do you know how many children are raised on this hatred after seeing their parents killed whether by Americans or Iraqi insurgents or militias?
Tom,
“For example I'd doubt you get a single No answer to your question about whether or not the war was worth it from the Kurds and very few Nos from the Shia.”
Do you measure the whole country on a minority? The Kurds are the minority in Iraq and you can’t judge on what they say simply because they are minority. Secondly, do you know that Shiites and Sunnis in areas other than Kurdistan are killed in double the number the Kurds were killed under Saddam?
Ymarsakar,
“Americans believe as much in freedom as Muslims believe in Islam and Allah.”
I agree. But they can believe in freedom on their lands. Why do they have to impose it on others? YOU CAN’T IMPOSE FREEDOM. Freedom should be adopted by the people, not from other forces from other countries. That’s why you see it did not work in Iraq. I have to say that Iraqis are not fans of freedom and democracy because it proved to them that this freedom is being used by the extremists who are controlling them now.
You will not believe if I tell you that we had freedom under Saddam more than this time. At least we had the freedom of life. We miss this freedom now. People are being killed just because the government and the Parliament supports the “freedom” of sending their militias and insurgents kill whoever they think is against them! Nothing has changed. If you are an Iraqi and you criticized Sadr or Hakim, you’ll be kidnapped, killed, mutilated and thrown on the sidewalks to make others see you and get a lesson!!!
“More than that, Americans believe that their fate is not pre-determined, that it is not the will of God”
You said it! Americans! Not Iraqis. Both countries are different. They have different culture and different religion. You can’t change that just because it is happening in your country.
“Banding together as a community, forming a solution, and then demanding the politicians accept that solution and implement it. That is the American way.”
It doesn’t work in Iraq. Simply because the Iraqi politicians are criminals and no better than Saddam. They don’t negotiate if you disagree. They kill you.
“Bush is not your President. He is not the one who decides if Al Sadr gets an axe through his head or an invitation to the government of Iraq. Bremer wasn't your President either.”
You are so naive. Go see how Maliki begged Bush not to replace him! He is the real “president” of Iraq even if he is not Iraqi and not in Iraq. All the decisions comes on paper with his Secretaries of State and Defense whenever they come to Iraq. They hand them the plan for the next month and leave. Call it conspiracy theory, but I and many Iraqis believe in it.
“America has always blamed Americans”
Well, it should be. They committed mistakes and they should be blamed for.
“But do they actually realize that they talk with more rage and venome against Bush than they do against Saddam?”
You know why? Simply because Saddam as a criminal tyrant did not cause what Bush caused in this war.
“If you want the thugs gone, send Bush a letter telling him to stop listening to his advisers in the State Department.”
That simple?! Well, I think the first thing Bush reads every morning is the Washington Post! Hasn’t he read any of the articles the Post published about the daily life in Iraq and how they pissed the people are because of his henchmen?
“Is it so hard to believe that some Iraqis might actually feel good will towards America.”
We never hated America as a nation. Some of those I intereviewed in this entry are here in America as I am. We respect the American people as long as they respect us. But that does not mean we support the country’s administration. It is far from being respected. It is the main the reason behind our country’s destruction.
“Do you really want to compare how much Iraqi bloggers have lost compared to the Kurds?”
As I said earlier, You can’t estimate on a minority. And again, Iraqis who are killed since the occupation are double the number of the kurds who died under Saddam.
ymar If you don't want freedom, then America can take back Iraq's sovereignty
how vey generous of you ymar. is that the option for iraqis? the 'freedom' to be slaves of the oil greedy? seeling their oil w/contracts that enslve them to foriegn debt and if they don't 'choose' it, the alternative is we 'take back' iraqi sovereinty!!!
you and your bs jacksonian americanisms which represent about .002 americans can go eat shit.
Look, America could have had a lot of security in the Revolutionary War, so long as the people stayed at home and obeyed the British.
really? and i suppose iraq could have had a lot of security in the the great liberating iraqi War, so long as the people stayed at home and obeyed the Americans.
perhaps iraqis are more like american than you think, maybe they will fight til their last breath to get rid of a stinking occupation that will tax them til their dying days.
wake up idiot, i am a proud american, and my country has been taken over by you and the scum you represent. you wouldn't know american sirit if it was standing in front of you. you speak like some colonizer. f off imposter. i want my country back, and we will prevail, we will get our troops home so they are not carrying water for the oil barons and empire myopic monsters called cheney&co.
The elected parliament
can have the US forces out of Iraq
in six months ... then if the happens The Jarrar family can return ... perhaps to Ramadi
where Raad can start the
Iraqi Civil Liberties Union
and work toward world peace.
Why do not all the Iraqi
in Jordan contact the Maliki
governmentm and plan a huge
organized return home in order
to reclaim their neighborhoods
from the extremists ???
What is there 250,000 iraqi in Jordan ??? If they all returned and did armed neighborhood watch
patrols Iraqi could turn around much faster ....
Oh wait ... 16 innocents dead
in Amara on Friday ... Hmm
did a Jew sneak in ?? ...
did an US Marine start the problem???
Did a british soldier give up his scones and Tea brunch to go back to Amara and kill 16 people ???
Oh no Iraqi killing Iraqi ...
as easy as drinking water !!! ...
But lets discuss Abu-Ghraib some more as if its still relevent!!!
"did a Jew sneak in ?? ...
did an US Marine start the problem???
Oh no Iraqi killing Iraqi ...
as easy as drinking water !!! ..."
Everyday in Phialdelphia, one person is at least murdered....
did Osama Bin Landen killed them?
did the Iraqi resistance killed them?
Oh no American is killing American...
as easy as drinking water !!!
The ITM post concerning the
Iraqi civilian death toll
is a legitimate critique ...
whats the big deal here ...
The Iraqi Health ministry has
its count at about 1/10 the figure.
Certainly criticism is valid and it does NOT in anyway diminish
the horrible situation in Iraq
now.
And you Iraqi quit crying about the sanctions already ...
Saddam controlled your oil ...
Saddam waged war against Kuwaiit
Saddam burned over 150 Kuwaitti
oil wells ... sanctions were levied
to slow down Saddams re-arming ...
and the oil for food program which
was admonistered by the UN with
great influence from France was
put in place for Humanitarian
supplies to flow into Iraq ...
The US was not involved ... the US
never stopped a ship with medicine
or hospital equipment from heading to Iraq or any other similar thing.
Start working on solutions to todays problems ... the descrepancy in the death toll
allows intereting debate ...
but it will not bring a loved one back to life ... nor will it prevent future deaths ... work on todays problems
I think the US forces should
move 50,000 into the Kurdish
region ... all others can
return home ... then
Maliki can turn the Shia militias loose ... and all the Iraqi
in the US/Jordan/elsewhere
can re-debate the civilian deaths
a year from now !!!
Except with US forces gone no one
in the world would care anymore ...
CNN would be gone ... the BBC
would be gone .... once the US
leaves Iraq ... it will be no longer news ... all the reporters
will go to Darfur ... it will be the bigger story
"Saddam controlled your oil ...
Saddam waged war against Kuwaiit
Saddam burned over 150 Kuwaitti
oil wells ... sanctions were levied
to slow down Saddams re-arming ...
and the oil for food program which
was admonistered by the UN with
great influence from France was
put in place for Humanitarian
supplies to flow into Iraq ..."
Still, Iraq was in a better shape under his dictatorship.
The "sad commentary" is that
the overwhelming violence
is Iraqi-Iraqi
THATS THE SAD PART
Sistani and other major Shia figures are going to meet in Mecca
after EID with major Sunni leaders
to discuss and present a unified
voice on Muslim-Muslim violence
gee ... I wonder why they
are doing that !!! ... I mean
considering the fact that
the Americans and the Israelis
are behing all of the killing in
Iraq !!! ...
Lets see how all the good decent Iraqi Muslim insurgents on both sides react to the new proclamation ...
I certainly hope it helps!!!
Yes thats true BT we do kill
each other
But we do not blame it on others
no one is blaming civilian criminal
acts in US on Muslims ... we
blame it on
1) people being nut cases
2) drug use
3) poverty
4) individual grievances
etc
once in a while an individual
or group will kill in the name of God .. but its certainly
not a way of life !!!
More Mosques in Iraq have been
bombed by other Muslims in the last
3 years
Then were attacked in USA
after 9/11 do you deny that !!!
And dear friend if the situation is the same ... then why are you
here ... certainly Baghdad
University is open
"But we do not blame it on others"
Duh! Of course, you don't blame it on others simply because others are not involved. But when others are involved, they should be BLAMED.
American occupation brought the extremists to power from Iran and from other countries. American administration backs up the Iraqi government and parliament which both supports militias and armed men.
Go and see how many Sadrists the parliament who believe in the Mahdi army.
Go and see how many Sunni parties in the parliament that support Sunni insurgents in Anbar, Diyala, Tikrit and Mosul.
Let's face reality. American administration is the one that supports the destruction of Iraq.
you don't want to believe in this because it's the truth and truth hurts!
and by the way, I am here not only to study but to let as much people as I can know what is really going on. There is a big number of Americans who changed their mind since I told them what's really going on overseas away from the propoganda TV stations.
Iraq was in better shape for
YOU ...
But was it in better shape for
the Kurdish region ???
Do the Kurds want to go back in time ???
Was it in better shape for say
those in Najaf/Kut/Kabala ???
Why
not go to Najaf and ask them if they want Saddam back ??? do not their voices count ???
Iraq is suffering now because
those loyal to Saddam planned this insurgency ... they do not want a
shared government ... they want to rule as they did before ...
The Shia areas absorbed at least
6 months of major attacks with very little retaliation ...
And now ... even with reasonable
offers by Maliki to share power
to change constitution ...
to include major Sunni figures in government ... the Shia civilian
areas were still attacked ....
Violence INCREASED after Jaffari...
Jaffari was never given a chance ... because thats the plan
this violence is not random ...
Its intent is to bring down your
elected government before it matures.
And the voiolence increased
the past few months for the same reason ... a violent minority
whose intent is to bring down the Maliki government ... except
now the Shia militias also
retaliate by killing civilians.
If US Forces leave Iraq by
January of this year ....
are you Zeyad and the Jarrar boys
heading back home ????
Iraqis have a government, a security force, and if they want to have a civil war let it be on their own watch. We have gone far enough, let's do what we can as Americans to bring the troops home as soon as possible and give Iraq back it's sovereignty.
Anonymous
"Iraq was in better shape for
YOU ...
But was it in better shape for
the Kurdish region ???
Do the Kurds want to go back in time ??
Was it in better shape for say
those in Najaf/Kut/Kabala ???"
well, Sir, is it better now??
can you give me a very little example about whats good that happened after US Army had invaded Iraq??
"And the voiolence increased
the past few months for the same reason ... a violent minority
whose intent is to bring down the Maliki government ... except
now the Shia militias also
retaliate by killing civilians."
Maliki and His government that you're talking about are backing up those shiite Militias... cause if you're smart... you would understand that those militias can't do what they're doing.... nor have the money to do it..unless if they were backed up by some officials...
and please.. I mean for GOD SAKE... stop making accusings to the violent minority as you described them... cause at first they're not minority...and most of them are innocent people who have nothing to do with whats going on in the streets.. and the rest of them were just resistants against the US occupation......and with what the militias started.. they just changed their target... toward these miltitas.. cause these miltitas(Fake policemen) are the one who started killing people (starting by killing any man whose name is Omar...they killed them without reasons just because of their names)...
DO YOU GET IT NOW????
Just get real...Admit that the U.S. Administration have destroyed Iraq..
Treasure, You know Juan Cole has eliminated anonymous postings, because these nuts can get free space to lecture you and the rest of us like we were children.
I have to post anonymous here because of the phantom partition I had to set up on the hard drive and I can't register on the same name in the other directory, the one I am in now.
But I am really annoyed by posters who rant and hide under the anonymous listing. they should identify themselves and have a blog site that allows similar postings.
It is really a shame to hear the same arguements again and again...
I know this is the nature of the Blog and the way new postings are disconnected. And this is your blog. I just wish these people would identify that they work for the Bush Admin. or whatever. If they are going to lecture me about pseudo-American history. Their arguements are so simple and one sided that it is like communicating with my children.
Edo River rising. and if you want to go and rant on my web site...I haven't yet gotten around to screening the comments ;-)
huuuffff...
why is it that everytime we talk politics, it gets ugly?
it truly is the great level-er.
no matter who you are, iraqi, america, alien from mars.. everybody fails to talk politics with manners.
thing is: The U.S. did wrong.
how?
well, they had good intentions:
1- "let's liberate these people from horrible dictatorship, and in the meantime secure a very large petroleum source.."
2- "OhKay, how do we plan this?"
1- "hmmm..aren't there many anti-Saddam iraqis running round washington? i just saw a couple in the last fundraiser.."
2- "uh.. great! i'll ASK 'em how!"
and this, is where they screwed up badly.
they asked a couple of people who were the MOST to benefit from saddam and his regime, and when their ego got bigger, they decided THEY wanted someone to kiss their shoes, so they took all the money they can grab hold of, and split, crying ASYLUM in the states and uk.
they had to hurry things up, as well, they thought iraq was just another korea, while in reality, it was worse than 10 vietnams. at least the VC didnt fight among each other like we do.
annnnnnnnywaaaaaaay:
this is all in the past, as EdoRiver said:
what can be done in the future?
hmmm.
simple. VERY simple.
Solve the Iranian problem.
soon they will be like N.Korea, everybody on the "other camp" kissing their asses not to shoot another nuke.
honestly:
cut out iran from the picture, and you will have an immediate solution to Badr brigades, al-Mahdi army, and other iranian-controlled militias.
then, manage the borders.
don't do it with US troops. agree with (pay) the local tribes to do it for you, convince them its in THEIR best interest.
treat the iraqis using "the british way of doing things".
they've been here before, and managed even to set-up a proxy government that was at the same time, patriotic. strange, right? but it worked.
lastly: clamp down on the current cripple corrupt government, and all bigshot politicians as well.
democracy was given to us in lethal doses. too much of it at one time. this is the reason for most of the chaos that happened and continued to happen.
a controversial suggestion:
clamp down on the mess that's round now with an iron hand, AND then, start introducing little bits of democracy back to the system. bit by bit.
and in 5 to 10 years (MINUS ALL THE BLOODSHED thats going round now), we WILL be the country most of YOU and US dreamed about, 3 years ago.
thing is: this war is controlled by ratings. and the current U.S. government doesn't have much time left to manage the internal problems of America, let alone any external problems of ANY other country.
iraq will stay in stalemate till after 2007.
oh and, another controversial statement: the troops will not be pulled, not in 2010, not in 2100!
don't yell, don't shout... it won't change me, and it won't change you.. let's just wait it out, 4-more-years (Schwarzenegger style) and see what comes out of it!
ahem:
if anyone is gonna rant bout salafi terrorists: read my last comment carefully:
"then, manage the borders."
these guys come from saudiarabia, jordan and syria to fund and organize local terrorist cells.
cut the head of the snake, and the body dies.
Treasure,
You say "American occupation brought the extremists to power from Iran and from other countries."
"Let's face reality. American administration is the one that supports the destruction of Iraq."
I would humbly point out that 12 million Iraqis voted for the current political leadership of Iraq. It wasn't Americans I saw on the news that day with purple fingers pretending to be happy Iraqis.
Are you proposing that America should abandon our support for the government that the Iraqis themselves chose?
@ 'Original Jeff', 10/21/2006 10:41 AM.
"Are you proposing that America should abandon our support for the government that the Iraqis themselves chose?".
Dear 'Original Jeff', that's just what your Administration & media made you to believe: elections under intimidation, MANNED and CONTROLLED by armed party militias (the two Kurdish gangs and plenty of the fundamentalist Shiite ones, SCIRI/Badr & Sadrists above all) are NOT to be regarded as genuine democratic elections, neither the 'Govt.' they produced as a government chosen by the Iraqi people.
Anarki.
You're wrong, Shiite militas are supported by Iraqis even though funded by Iranians, same way goes to insurgents.
Problem is much deeper.
What should be done now?
I think it is now the Iraqi official suits and turbans' turn to put their differences and business interests aside and have mercy on the Iraqi people who have been used as a fuel for their dirty wars.
When should the US forces withdraw?
Once they clean up their mess.
Who's to blame?
My dad and all those Iraqis who back in the late 1960s decided to keep their mouths shut just to be on the safe side. They all acted according to the Egyptian saying "Walk beside the wall". I think they kept walking beside the wall and watch others and themselves suffer and watch themselves being enslaved by someone whose only drive and prowess was how to quench his thirst for blood. And now that the wall has collapsed over their heads they have the nerve to wonder "what have we done?"
RE: Treasure of Baghdad
"At least Allah responds to the prayers of His people unlike others who just keep promising and not fulfilling their promise."
Then you haven't asked Allah for peace and security? I think that statement should just read, 'yes, I don't like Americans.' I am an American but I do wish peace, security, freedom for the Iraqi people but if they are saying they now realize life was better under Saddam then maybe we should rethink what we have tried to do. But do you also give some weight to those whose families were murdered under Saddam and that their lives were no rosier then, than you say yours is now?
Thom
anon: :they are saying they now realize life was better under Saddam "
I think most Germans would have said life was better for them in 1936 vs 1946. Just a hunch.
BT, do you want to raise your kids in the comfy days of old, or in something more like what the Kurds have?
" But do you also give some weight to those whose families were murdered under Saddam and that their lives were no rosier then, than you say yours is now?"
Yes. Most of the people who suffered under Saddam are again suffering under your occupation even the families who left the country and immigrated did lose members of their families who live here. So it is like if Saddam was not enough now we have America.
“BT, do you want to raise your kids in the comfy days of old, or in something more like what the Kurds have?”
I want to raise my kids in a peaceful place where they can go to schools and my wife and I go to work and have a normal life. No more than that. I hoped that “freedom” is going to get me enjoy peace but this freedom betrayed me, destroyed my country and deprived me from peace.
The old days are gone. I am not saying I want it back. The bloggers and I are comparing life now with the old days. Talking about these old days does not mean we’ll get them back. It is just to show you how your administration has fooled you and us.
Try to understand that most of what happened is because of your government. You need a change. People are dying from both sides.
If you want my opinion about the Kurds, scroll up and see what I wrote.
Tom,
“Then you haven't asked Allah for peace and security?”
I am not that religious but I do strongly believe in Allah. If you don’t, it’s up to you. I have asked Allah several times for many things and His Almighty gave them to me. I asked him for peace and I am sure he’ll bring it back to my country one day where I can go back, live normally and tell my kids of how Saddam and the Americans once destroyed a country with thousands of years of civilization.
“But do you also give some weight to those whose families were murdered under Saddam and that their lives were no rosier then, than you say yours is now?”
I don’t know why do think anyone who says it was better under Saddam means he/she did not suffer. My whole family SUFFERED under Saddam. My aunt lost her husband when Saddam executed him just because his grandfather was born in Iran. She and her daughters were deprived from the Iraqi nationality because of that. They suffered for decades but if you go and ask her now, she’ll say “at least we had a relatively normal life.” She said that hundreds times. Just try to imagine that we enjoyed a normal life despite the financial difficulties.
Jeff,
Everytime you visit, you put such comment. As if you wrote it aside and you just copy and paste it on Omar’s and my blog.
Iraqis did go and vote and now they regret what they did. I dare you go out and ask people of Baghdad whether they are happy with those whom they voted for. They will tell you they are not, simply because they let their people down. My father voted for the Shiite slate. Before I left, he said he wish he did not because of the ones he voted for are sending their militias to kill people. My mother voted for the secular’s, Allwai’s. Now she regretted that because Allawi seems asleep. He carried out what America wanted him to do before the fall of Saddam and now his job is over. No activity to maintain the secular Iraq.
“Are you proposing that America should abandon our support for the government that the Iraqis themselves chose?”
Yes, because this government is corrupt, criminal and selfish. How come you want me trust policemen and army members while I saw them helping militias kill innocent people? How come do you want me to trust such a government which every time Bush appears says he “backs them up”?
BT: "I want to raise my kids in a peaceful place where they can go to schools and my wife and I go to work and have a normal life. No more than that."
You're welcome to stay in the US then. If your gov't fails it will be a long long time before anything "natural" becomes the #1 cause of death in Iraq.
Some (many) people are hoping for a coup or a "do-over" with the gov't. I think I have more faith in Iraqis than many, but nothing tells me you can do a Thailand-esque (bloodless) coup in Iraq. If you just want a change from Iraq, the militias are ready and waiting with a plan. If you want one from my gov't, you just may get it in a few weeks. However, the plans presented by the other side range from withdrawing and fighting from the periphery (like Okinawa) using air power, or partitioning Iraq and leaving you to it.
On another note, it seems the gov't has retaken Amara from the Mehdi militia. Good job! I actually saw a news report that called it a "success". They could have at least called it a "failure to fail" or something.
"I dare you go out and ask people of Baghdad whether they are happy with those whom they voted for. They will tell you they are not"
I second that.
I cannot count the times when I find myself among people cursing the government openly in the streets while I was standing with them in line to fill the car with fuel. Where ever you go you'll find people frustrated and angry at the government and I'm talking about THEEEEE people, not only those who did not vote for them but those who did.
I am an American. I feel powerless and sad. I am sorry for the wreck my nation has made. If there is something I can do, please tell me.
perhaps this is the wrong thread, not an appropriate time, none the less i am here now, and this is what is in my heart. i cannot stop thinking about those no longer with us. in my heart (w/tears) i hope
will the circle be unbroken
I am not going to respond to any comment, although I really want to say a lot of things to jeff amd ymar. BT can do a much better than me.
But these people have a problem, the western world have this problem in general. You only see things through your eyes, you don’t even try to turn the coin over and take a look at the other side. What we are trying to do here is make you see things through our eyes, the way we see it. The whole problem of the Middle East is seeing through one eye. You want things to go your way, this might work for you at home, but that doesn’t mean its going to work here, or anywhere else. You should start thinking, or should I say rethinking, your methods. If you want us to understand you, you should understand us. You should see things our way for once.
It strikes me that you Iraqis only began to appreciate Saddam after he was gone. Maybe you should acknowledge that he did a very difficult job to the best of his ability. Yes, he was a dictator, but not a tyrant. He loved Iraq and he still does!
Bush and Blair IMHO are War Criminals and should be in the courts with Saddam, thats how history will view them, and before anyone patriotic fellow westeners get their knickers in a knot cast your mind back to why 'we' are there
I've been anti occupation since innocent civilians were getting bombed pre war for not letting the weapons inspectors in, well wouldn't you be a tad p*ssed off if a foreign nation told you how to conduct your affairs (which happened to be misguided and wrong)
Now tht North Korea and Iran are upping the stakes the West are looking like the biggest circus since the big top hit town
Troops out and let the Iraqi people choose,
Respect to this breed of bloggers who are reporting accuratly from the area better than the weapons inspectors and co ever did !
Salam
Steve - Gulf War 1 Vet
The USA is to blame for giving Iraqis the opportunity for freedom, justice and opportunity at the risk of chaos and violence.
Iraqis and neighbors are to blame for choosing the chaos and violence. Want to fix that? Then Iraqis need to get together and fix it themselves. The USA is not going to do it for you!
Hmm... I found some of the comments interesting and thought of what I saw a military historian say on the Newshour w Lehrer today. He said that what Iraqi's want most is security and the US has not provided it. That there are only enough troops in Iraq to avoid the keeping the whole thing from falling apart at once but that there are not enough to move away from the "abyss", thus Iraq is constantly in danger of falling into it.
Many have said the motives for going into Iraq were good and that Saddam was a terrible dictator (I would use the word tyrant). One of the things that I thought was very interesting was the comment that now there are many Saddams where there was only one before. When you don't have security I guess these people (some of whom can be quite scary/cruel) realize that they can get away with trying to carve out their own little kingdom. This became creates a situation where instead of freedom there is a free for all (a big fight between many people for those that don't recognize the term).
There are a few things I would like to mention right now. I don't think the US wants troops to stay in Iraq. I'm guessing that to some extent the talk about not leaving till the situation is stable is true. The more that the "resistance" tries to kill US troops and Iraqis that work with them the less stable it because so the less chance that the "occupation" will actually end. Thats an irony wrapped in and combined with thousands of tragedies.
I figure that some of the resistance/insurgents are fighting because they want to make themselves kings (without using that word to describe the post they would give themselves). Just like I think Sadr would like to use his Madhi army to do the same. Iran helps Sadr because it would like someone friendly to itself to end up ruling Iraq and several other nations have let fanatics flow into Iraq because it would be hard to stop them and for one reason or another the nation has allowed or made it possible for the organizations that can create them to exist within their borders.
It doesn't help things that Bush just said he plans to keep Rummy-the person that came up with the very shortsighted/bad plan for the war in Iraq. The question of if the war could have been done better is still very much real. Democracy has been imposed on one country by another before. The US imposed it on Japan after world war 2 and its a better nation for it. But in came up with a much better plan for the rebuilding of Japan and the democracy that was fostered in it than Rummy has.
And for those who think the US would like to rule Iraq consider that the occupation in Japan ended a long time ago without a "resistance". I saw one person mention oil and thats not something that I would discount that somebody in the Bush administration (or one of its backers) was thinking about. More than just those people who were greedy and wanted to get their hands on oil had to agree to this war in order for it to happen (if it was just about oil it probably wouldn't have).
Several Iraqis have said that they are unhappy with who they voted for. Is there a way to have new political leaders/parties form that would be better and could be voted in just as easily as those who are in power now were?
Its funny how short peoples memory is. Actuyally im talking about the American replies.
And the people who actually believe that the invasion is about freedom. Ha, thats a joke if i ever heard one.
If the Americans cared for freedom, they would do the same in Israel. Where the whole Palistinian people have been hijacked.
Who gave the Americans the right to be world policeman anyway.
Heres a short lesson in history.
Iraqis fought for democracy, America implanted Saddam.
Iraqis fought against Saddam, US supported Saddam. THey gave Saddam weapons to use against civilian populations.
The US all but created the Taliban ideology, so Afghans would fight the Russians.
THUGLIFE
People fought for democracy In Iran, America deposed the democratic Nationalist leader, and implanted the SHAH. A DICTATOR.
WHy? Because under the SHAH US Oil contracts were much more profitable.
A democracy would use the natural resources for the people.
US support Saudia Arabia, oppressors of freedom.
THe fallacy of America as a democracy is the second biggest joke.
THe whole country is run by corporate lobby, and average Joe is worthless.
Any country that can commit 9.11 and blame it on others cant be that free.
Pull our men home, let them fix thier own problems. Which of course they wont because sheep just sit around and wait for a new wolf to "protect" them.
Honestly has anyone who complains about how things are now read any history of the revolution, and not the pretty school book versions of it but the real neighbor fighting neighboor gritty ugly stuff. Uglyness that lasted years after the war was done.
When the fatalities of the last three years in Iraq are discussed, one response is Saddam killed many people. This is true. But wasn't the idea that the US was different? I hadn't realized the US was competing for the prize of Dictator With The Most Excusable Heinous Crimes.
That is the most heartbreaking thing about the whole awful mess: it was not necessary. Saddam was a horrible monster. It was no accident that people died under him. With the Americans, it's simply that the people running things don't care. They were after the oil. The Iraqis could die or not die. Is it worse to die as a target? Or squashed underfoot by someone who doesn't know you exist? I think we're finding out.
For myself, I am anguished about paying taxes in a country that starts wars for the hell of it, and commits war crimes. I used to wonder why people under bad regimes didn't do more to resist. Now I know. I can turn my life upside down, ruin everything for myself and those I love, and I won't save a single life or change one criminal policy. The only thing I'll achieve is that I've done the right thing. So I don't. I do smaller right things that are less inconvenient, but, really, when it's the kinds of crimes the US is now committing, only complete non-cooperation is possible. But it's too much trouble. I've found out how "Good Germans" are made. I've also found out that I really didn't want to know.
My heart ache for the victims of this war in Iraq. The main victims are the American Soldiers and their families. The Americans are always there for all. What is hapening in IRAQ is not political.. Is Islamists having a field day. But Democracy is not what is needed here. If the IRaqies fail to challenge these religious fanatics and stop blaming America and hating Innocent Americans, they will never know peace.
If you do not confront these religious evil, no amount of criticism against America will help you.
Leave George Bush and Tony Blair alone. These are men of timber and calibre that have aged becuase of your country issues.
My heart grieve for the pregnant women of Iraq, for the new born babies and the peace loving among you.
Say no to violence!!!!!
I think the Iraqis know better, especially the ones who live in Iraq.
I is very unfair for American citizens to criticise Iraqis for saying that they were safer under Saddam.
I feel sorry for Iraqis, I really really wish (given the current situation) that Iraq never had oil.
I bet there will be many others thinking the same way too.
Why do Americans think that their way of life is best, and try to shove it down other peoples throats?
I have a theory about the war and present day iraq which goes:
Puppet Master: I hate saddam. He mocked my father and me too. I love oil and I want to teach the world that no one messes with the Bush family. Who is going to support me to topple Saddam?
Puppets: We will, but what do we get in return?
Puppet Master: High positions, money +++, autonomy for your sect, lands near oil wells
Puppets: Why not master..we will convince our people
Puppet Master: Who do you think is most against Saddam?
Puppet: Sect xxx, but what do they get if they help you out?
Puppet master: Revenge agaist Saddam, autonomy + + +
Puppets: But people fear Saddam a lot.
Master: Yes, we can make people change. We will impose sanctions for 12 years until they begin to think of ways to get away from it. We will make it unberable to them. We will promise them Freedom, Democracy + + +
Puppets: O.K we will give you oil, but you must also close your eyes to what we do.
---chaos chaos, america is loosing the war...news headlines...abu guraib...falluja massacre.....
situation chages
Puppet Master: We are losing, how to save our faces oh great generals?
Generals: Master, the insurgents are mainly Sunni, we can start bombing Shite shrines and markets and blame it on the sunnis (and vise versa), the situation will resolve for it self, no need for more troops or funds or supplies
Generals: We can also tell the world that the situation was out of control because of Iraqis and have an honourable escape back home.
speak your minds dear iraqi people! i read your words and learn more of the perspective of an iraqi.
it is such an easy thing to do, to open your mind and just take in what somebody is saying, and accept it as their view. that is all one should do. if i am going to judge anyone, it can only be myself.
which makes me wonder why the imperialist americans that have posted here must shout down any rationalism with a sheer arrogance that can only be attributed to a naive concept of the world, immaturity, lack of empathy and closed eyes.
rapists blame their victims too. that is their logic.
my heart is with all people who have suffered the consequences of a dangerously subverted us department of energy policy...
but there is hope for the future. but it can only start by looking in the mirror. by not imposing your will on others.
cd
We need to stop waiting for the World to change, and stop waiting for someone else will do it for us
One Person can make a difference ..as a tiny drop can lead to an Ocean ..the flapping of a butterfly's
wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that can ultimately cause a tornado one voice ..one action can lead to a better World for all of us.... we all can make a difference
We need to stop waiting for the World to change, and stop waiting for someone else to do it for us.
One Person can make a difference ..as a tiny drop can lead to an Ocean ..the flapping of a butterfly's
wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that can ultimately cause a tornado...one voice ..one action can lead to a better World for all of us.... we all can make a difference
I too would like to hear from more Iraqi bloggers/people. I understand that this could be quite hard for you since the power may or may not work well and any number of terrible things could be happening nearby. If sometime you have a chance to speak/post a comment though please do. Thank you and I wish you well.
I'll honestly say that I live in the USA. And if & when I post I will use the same heading. Could you others do the same (several other posts that are obviously from different people all are labeled "anonymous"). One of the great things about this blog is that people from different nations can visit it and make a comment. What nations are you from? What kind of news do you see?
The main victims of this war are Iraqi people. When this ends more Iraqis will have died than people from any other nation. I do sympathize with US soldiers because I feel that most of them would like to help-not hurt, dominate, or build an empire over Iraqis. But fewer US soldiers have died than Iraqis.
My guess is that the person who wrote the "puppet" and "puppet master dialogue" is a native of some other Middle Eastern nation. I notice you blame the shrine bombings on the US. Something that is not impossible but I greatly doubt it. As I said there are rivals that want to be king of Iraq. One strikes out against shrines because they wanted to scare those who they feel oppose them or want revenge for some earlier attack. Some of these attacks also come out of religious intolerance. There is a small group of Iraqi Christians that have lived there for many years. Some of their churches were bombed because someone could stand that they had a different religion. There are not enough Iraqi Christians to cause a civil war if they blamed either Shia or Sunni for what happened to them. Thus there would be no reason for the US to bomb them as well as it would provide no cover for "situation to resolve itself" as you tried to say. But people who believe that those who do not have the same religion should convert or die it is a very cruel thing to do goes along with a fanatic's belief. Those same fanatics would not approve of a Shia if they where Sunni or Sunni if they were Shia. So there they went, killing Iraqis but not caring because those Iraqis were different from them in some way. Some of the people doing this are Iraqis attacking fellow Iraqis and others are from a foreign lands thinking that they can use Iraq to create their own kingdom or strengthen that nation's position if they come from a neighboring country.
Saddam didn't just "mock" people, he had them imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Yes sadly the US has done the same but not one the same scale as Saddam. And many inside and outside of the government have been arguing for and trying to get such things to stop. I wasn't there but I suspect it was not that way for Saddam's government.
To you who pointed out times the US has fought and overthrown democracy rather than supporting it you are right in that it could and has happened. Each one is a shameful point in US history for the USA. I've seen the Shah used as example of why the US should not support dictatorships anymore (both in that dictatorships are generally bad and that since the US worked against Iranians' freedom back then many hated the US after). Also South Korea became a democracy when it was a dictatorship, I suspect, because of the US pushing the dictatorship that existed at that time to give its citizens freedom.
The current threat Iranians' freedom comes not from the US but from fellow Iranians' who set something other that is not a democracy up after they rebelled against the Shah. Thus the current threat to Iranian freedom is internal (Iranians' who don't want to share power with fellow Iranians') rather than external (another nation-such as the US-trying to rule Iran).
One of you expressed corporate lobbyists as thus who rule the US. I think wealthy and corporate lobbyists and their ability to give money to (and thus bribe or buy) politicians is one of the greatest internal threats to democracy in the USA. I do think their power to do so can be fought and I would hope that it is undone in the future (if this would happen I admit it would take many years, but I think some first small steps are happening to fight against this.)
Oil has been a curse for many nations-in attracts the attention of those who want it or want to control it from both inside and outside a nation. And it may be true that Corporate and Government elites wanted to invade Iraq for this reason. But even if this was true it is not the thoughts/feelings of the population that has the power to elect or unelect politicians in the government or soldiers in the army that end up having to fight around Iraq.
For the person that mentioned Israel. There are at least three things to think about when discussing US support for it. What happened to many Jewish people because of the Nazis was a terrible thing. It was so bad that many developed a sympathy back then that Jews were picked on rather than picking on others (whom we may think of as the Palestinians today). So there was a time when great sympathy was felt toward them. Israel promised to be and acted as an Ally of the USA during the Cold War when it was struggling with the Soviet Union. So many bonds between the USA and Israel were strengthened during that time. And many dictators and other terrible people were able to get the support of the US by promising them an alliance against the Soviet Union at that time. And last I've heard the Israeli lobby (and a lobby talks to politicians and government officials in order to convince them that the lobby's position is correct as well as gives them money as bribes or to support those who agree with them during races for elections) is probably one of the best of any nation that has a lobby in the USA. The majority of citizens in the USA don't care much about Israel (and would be horrified to see what has been done to many Palestinians), but the minority that supports Israel has been very active. It is also easy to claim that Israel is a victim when a suicide bomber blows himself up in bus or market. It hasn't happened yet but I think some the US government are starting to realize that the Palestinians have not been treated fairly.
If Palestinians get their own nation (and I think they will) one problem for them to deal with could be similar to Iraq now where the threats to their freedom come internally from other Palestinians as many Iraqis are currently threatened by other Iraqis-though also by fanatics, some of whom are not Iraqi though some are.
To Iraqis who may read this, I hope your lives get better and the violence and power plays that plague you come to an end.
Let's face it- the US is not in Iraq bcs it thinks it's so important to create a democracy. If you doubt this, you haven't been paying attention to world history or been reading much.
Clearly, our government supports the type of foreign government that best suits "our" interests. It could be perceived security interests (the potential domino effect of southeast asia), but usually, it seems to be financial interests (just about everywhere else- central america, africa, the middle east, etc etc) Unfortunately, it's the financial interests of really big corporations who have the power to pull the strings. Sure,some of the crumbs trickle down to us regular folk, and we used to have a large middle class due to this, but even that is fast disappearing.
All of this seems fairly obvious to me. If we were truly about democracy then why the contras? why chile? why haiti, the list can go on and on (and it's surprising how many supposedly well educated Americans are so ignorant about these well documented cases).
SO- it's not about democracy. But even if it WERE- it's for a people to choose democracy. It can't be imposed upon a people or nation any more than ridiculous taxes and a remote monarchy could be imposed upon a weaker little group of start up colonies in the new world. There doesn't appear to be proper "buy-in" of this concept of democracy we supposedly love so much and so we get mad at the very people who are suffering before and after?
It's rather sickening if you ask me, the ignorant arrogance of my country people whose origins are so great. We quickly lost any moral superiority once we got those big documents signed and framed (D of Indy, Bill o' Roghts, Constitution).
Much love and peace to those who suffer so horribly. May we not have to find out what that is like for a long, long time.
Now I see that as Americans we made a mistake committing our army and our sons to helping a country liberate itself from a dictator. We've offered more help by about 100 fold or more than what was offered to us from foreign countries when we fought our revolution to be free of King George III (lol, another ill-begotten king). Here's the difference, we were radically more motivated as a collective society, even with our different religions or atheists, to band together and overthrow the British. We, too, suffered a great deal, our men just barely managed to pull it off. If we'd have had the same desire for freedom that the Iraqis have, there would be no USA at all. Iraqi people, we're sorry, okay, if you'd have been really ready, then you would've been easily able to establish your new free society with less pain. Alas, now you need to stand up and take it back, we Americans get that, don't you see the amazing bravery our men show even while they aren't even in their own country? Imagine how we'd fight if you were in our country instead. We have it good only because many of us stood up for what was right for establishing our free society. This is why we have a legal system (however, flawed and corrupt) that works. Its why we have what we have so much art and science and strong businesses. If you were content under a hypocritical bastard who used rape rooms to torture your people because it was less painful to do that, then fine, our bad on that! No, really, George Bush got in without thinking, just wanted to get Saddam I guess and get control of oil. But well, we can, and we let our government do it. We will ultimately have to attone for this somehow, I prefer that we just replace the government. As you may have seen, our people successfully voted out the party that George Bush is with from our congress! So, what do you want? If you're not willing to die for your own freedom, you will be slaves to somebody! At least until men finally resolve the idea that force only creates counterforce and endless war and adopt a new way of handling disputes. Sorry you feel we let you down and sorry we didn't know better to just let you wallow in your comfort zone.
CB
United States
Post a Comment