In every country, all children in their early years enjoy their childhood. Children in allover the world wake up early to go to school accompanied by their parents whom they bid a farewell with a smile on the faces. But for Eman, it is not the same. In one morning, she was left with no one of her family next to her but her eight years-old brother, Abdul Rahaman.
In Haditha, a restless town in western Iraq, Eman, 9, recalled how she and her brother became orphans. Talking to a reporter from Time Magazine, the parentless child remembered how she and her youngest brother became orphans. "We heard a big noise that woke us all up," she told the reporter. "Then we did what we always do when there's an explosion: my father goes into his room with the Koran and prays that the family will be spared any harm." Like everywhere in Iraq during the continuous hard times, the family gathers in one room. The rest of Eman’s family--her mother, grandfather, grandmother, two brothers, two aunts and two uncles--gathered in the living room, she said.
A group of trigger-happy U.S. Marines stormed the house. Eman says she "heard a lot of shooting, so none of us went outside. Besides, it was very early, and we were all wearing our nightclothes." When the Marines entered the house, they were shouting in English. "First, they went into my father's room, where he was reading the Koran," she claims, "and we heard shots." Then, the worst part happened: “I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."
Shielded by the adults, the other children eventually died of the continuous shooting. Then Eman recalled the troops firing towards the corner of the room where she and her younger brother Abdul Rahman, were hiding. Bleeding, Eman and Abdul Rahman were later rescued by Iraqi soldiers who entered after the marines left.
The incident happened on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005, when a roadside bomb struck a humvee carrying Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, on a road near Haditha, where Eman and her family lived. The bomb killed Lance Corporal Miguel (T.J.) Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, Texas.
After leaving Eman and her brother, the Marines claimed that they heard lots of shootings form the next-door house. They fumed the house of the neighbors killing eight of its residents, including the owner of the house, his wife, the owner's sister, a 2-year-old son, and three young daughters.
Then, they felt thirsty to storm a third house, and they did. They killed all the residents and did not allow and elder son, who lives next door, to go and see his executed family. He found them in the morgue the next day. "The Americans gathered my four brothers and took them inside my father's bedroom, to a closest," Time quoted the son. "They killed them inside the closet."
Eman’s family’s death was false-reported by the US Marines first. On Nov. 20, 2005, “a Marine communiqué from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported that Terrazas and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by the blast and that "gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire," prompting the Marines to return fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding one other, the Time Magazine said.
To record the crime in history, an Iraqi journalism student videotaped the criminal scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad was given the tape by Time. After reviewing the evidence, Johnson passed it on to the military command, suggesting that the events of Haditha be given "a full and formal investigation."
Time reported that a Marines official went to Haitha to probe the incident. The probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines. What a tragedy!
The worst part in the whole crime was the "compensation". The US paid the relatives of the victims $2500 for each of the dead civilians.
A day after Time's revelation of the crime, another crime showed up. In the very early morning of March 15, five children under school age, four women and two men were killed by the US army in Ishaqi, an Iraqi town north of Baghdad, Iraqi and international news agencies reported. As usual, the US army denied the incident. Though, Iraqi police revealed the crime to the public. "It's a clear and perfect crime without any doubt," Faruq Hussein, an Iraqi police colonel told Reuters.
Video tapes showed the dead people, including the children, all in a burned and half-destroyed room. Iraqi police said the ages of the dead ranged from 6 months to 75 years. To shut the mouth of the general public, the US army claimed to open an "investigation".
Now, the question is: what is going on? Was it a self-defense or cold-blooded revenge? Why do the US forces keep doing this? Since, I have started my blog, I received many emails from American people encouraging me not to misunderstand US troops as "most" of them believe in the mission of "freedom" they are sacrificing for. I believed that for some time. But what has changed? A crime after a crime, a scandal after a scandal, how much should we bear? Isn't there a way to stop that? Whether the Americans stop these actions or Iraqis make them stop it peacefully or by force?
From the bottom of my heart, I wish an American soldier or officer reads these lines? I am addressing the US army and marines here: I want to ask you, were these women, children, and old men fighting you? Were they carrying RPJs? Have you seen them planting a bomb on the road?
Let's suppose that one of the men was doing that INSIDE the house. Does that give the troops the right to kill his father, mother, wife and children? Don't they understand that by doing this, they are creating a generation that is going to hate them and hate the whole idea of freedom they brought?
Have you heard that Eman's youngest brother is traumatized? What about Eman, herself? Do you think she is going to forget the day she saw her entire family killed by these troops? I bet not.
Just an advice to the future: if you invade a country, try to be nice with the people. Try to remember that you have a sister, a brother, a mother and a father. One more thing for you to know: the more innocent civilians are killed by you, the more the gap increases and the more hatred and will of revenge increases. I heard many stories by people who lost dear relatives and friends who were killed "by mistake". They said they "will never forget about it and will take revenge whenever they are ready." That's why you find people fighting you, that's why there are people who joined terrorists in their operations and that's why you are not winning the war in Iraq and may never be able to, until you take into considerations that these are people who survived dictatorship and oppression.
Let's all pray that these dead innocents rest in peace.
In Haditha, a restless town in western Iraq, Eman, 9, recalled how she and her brother became orphans. Talking to a reporter from Time Magazine, the parentless child remembered how she and her youngest brother became orphans. "We heard a big noise that woke us all up," she told the reporter. "Then we did what we always do when there's an explosion: my father goes into his room with the Koran and prays that the family will be spared any harm." Like everywhere in Iraq during the continuous hard times, the family gathers in one room. The rest of Eman’s family--her mother, grandfather, grandmother, two brothers, two aunts and two uncles--gathered in the living room, she said.
A group of trigger-happy U.S. Marines stormed the house. Eman says she "heard a lot of shooting, so none of us went outside. Besides, it was very early, and we were all wearing our nightclothes." When the Marines entered the house, they were shouting in English. "First, they went into my father's room, where he was reading the Koran," she claims, "and we heard shots." Then, the worst part happened: “I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."
Shielded by the adults, the other children eventually died of the continuous shooting. Then Eman recalled the troops firing towards the corner of the room where she and her younger brother Abdul Rahman, were hiding. Bleeding, Eman and Abdul Rahman were later rescued by Iraqi soldiers who entered after the marines left.
The incident happened on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005, when a roadside bomb struck a humvee carrying Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, on a road near Haditha, where Eman and her family lived. The bomb killed Lance Corporal Miguel (T.J.) Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, Texas.
After leaving Eman and her brother, the Marines claimed that they heard lots of shootings form the next-door house. They fumed the house of the neighbors killing eight of its residents, including the owner of the house, his wife, the owner's sister, a 2-year-old son, and three young daughters.
Then, they felt thirsty to storm a third house, and they did. They killed all the residents and did not allow and elder son, who lives next door, to go and see his executed family. He found them in the morgue the next day. "The Americans gathered my four brothers and took them inside my father's bedroom, to a closest," Time quoted the son. "They killed them inside the closet."
Eman’s family’s death was false-reported by the US Marines first. On Nov. 20, 2005, “a Marine communiqué from Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi reported that Terrazas and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed by the blast and that "gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire," prompting the Marines to return fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding one other, the Time Magazine said.
To record the crime in history, an Iraqi journalism student videotaped the criminal scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad was given the tape by Time. After reviewing the evidence, Johnson passed it on to the military command, suggesting that the events of Haditha be given "a full and formal investigation."
Time reported that a Marines official went to Haitha to probe the incident. The probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines. What a tragedy!
The worst part in the whole crime was the "compensation". The US paid the relatives of the victims $2500 for each of the dead civilians.
A day after Time's revelation of the crime, another crime showed up. In the very early morning of March 15, five children under school age, four women and two men were killed by the US army in Ishaqi, an Iraqi town north of Baghdad, Iraqi and international news agencies reported. As usual, the US army denied the incident. Though, Iraqi police revealed the crime to the public. "It's a clear and perfect crime without any doubt," Faruq Hussein, an Iraqi police colonel told Reuters.
Video tapes showed the dead people, including the children, all in a burned and half-destroyed room. Iraqi police said the ages of the dead ranged from 6 months to 75 years. To shut the mouth of the general public, the US army claimed to open an "investigation".
Now, the question is: what is going on? Was it a self-defense or cold-blooded revenge? Why do the US forces keep doing this? Since, I have started my blog, I received many emails from American people encouraging me not to misunderstand US troops as "most" of them believe in the mission of "freedom" they are sacrificing for. I believed that for some time. But what has changed? A crime after a crime, a scandal after a scandal, how much should we bear? Isn't there a way to stop that? Whether the Americans stop these actions or Iraqis make them stop it peacefully or by force?
From the bottom of my heart, I wish an American soldier or officer reads these lines? I am addressing the US army and marines here: I want to ask you, were these women, children, and old men fighting you? Were they carrying RPJs? Have you seen them planting a bomb on the road?
Let's suppose that one of the men was doing that INSIDE the house. Does that give the troops the right to kill his father, mother, wife and children? Don't they understand that by doing this, they are creating a generation that is going to hate them and hate the whole idea of freedom they brought?
Have you heard that Eman's youngest brother is traumatized? What about Eman, herself? Do you think she is going to forget the day she saw her entire family killed by these troops? I bet not.
Just an advice to the future: if you invade a country, try to be nice with the people. Try to remember that you have a sister, a brother, a mother and a father. One more thing for you to know: the more innocent civilians are killed by you, the more the gap increases and the more hatred and will of revenge increases. I heard many stories by people who lost dear relatives and friends who were killed "by mistake". They said they "will never forget about it and will take revenge whenever they are ready." That's why you find people fighting you, that's why there are people who joined terrorists in their operations and that's why you are not winning the war in Iraq and may never be able to, until you take into considerations that these are people who survived dictatorship and oppression.
Let's all pray that these dead innocents rest in peace.


79 Comments:
Yes, let's AVOID talking about the thousands of Iraqi civlians who have been TARGETED and killed ON PURPOSE by the insurgents in Iraq and focus on scene where there was a firefight between insurgents and American forces with absolutely unfortunate results for anyone caught in the middle.
Thanks for doing a great job of EVASION, BT.
Every day in the last week insurgents have killed Iraqi citizens and NOT ONE WORD from you.
Iraq will have a great future -- but NOT due to you.
*
BT,
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A car bombing on Thursday killed 25 people in the third major attack on a police lockup in three days, while 17 Iraqis were killed in other attacks and 14 bodies were found.
A suicide car bomber detonated his explosives at the entrance to the Interior Ministry Major Crimes unit in Baghdad’s central Karradah district, killing 10 civilians and 15 policemen employed there, authorities said.
Accident or cold-blooded murder?
Is there any doubt, BT?
*
Treasure,
Did you know that the United States has more military forces deployed to Germany, Korea, and Japan than we in Iraq? We have 74,000 soldiers in Germany; 37,000 in Japan; and 36,000 in Korea. That number exceeds the number in Iraq, which is about 130,000. Also, most of the soldiers currently deployed in Germany, Japan, and Korea have already spent a year or more in Iraq.
QUESTION: How many times have you heard of U.S. soldiers in Japan, Germany, or Korea shooting and killing innocent Japanese, Korean, or German civilians? ANSWER: *Never* -- not in the last 40 years anyway!
I think this should tell you something! The problem is NOT mainly with the American soldiers. The problem is mainly with the bad Iraqis. If Iraqis acted normally and correctly like Germans, Japanese, and Koreans, my guess is that your country would be a whole lot better off!
There were more than 10,300 IED attacks last year against US force sin Iraq. That tells you that many hundreds, and probably thousands, of Iraqis are very, very ignorant.
Another thought experiment:
Imagine if we selected 24 million Germans at random and transported them to Iraq. Next, we take all 24 million Iraqis and transport them to Germany. This would be a people swap!
The U.S. soldiers currently in Iraq would stay in Iraq. The difference is that Iraqis have been shipped to Germany, and Germans have been shipped to Iraq.
What do you think would change on the ground in Iraq? Do you believe that there would be 10,500 IED attacks next year? Do you believe that the infrastructure of Iraq would be in better condition? Do you believe that there would be more or less corruption in government? Do you think health and education would be improved?
“the more innocent civilians are killed by you, the more the gap increases and the more hatred and will of revenge increases”
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. While the incident you describe above is certainly tragic, even though we still don’t know all facts, it by no means gives you the right to portray every American soldier as some bloodthirsty lunatic. Let us not forget that these men and women have spilled their blood on your soil so that you and your children can have a better future.
Baghdad Treasure,
Thank you for speaking the truth and having the bravery to stand up to those who neither care for our people nor want us to truly live free.
I pray for your safety, akhuy, as I do for all Iraqis, irrespective of their backgrounds.
You and I have become friends over the last few months and I appreciate that very much.
Keep writing. Keep informing the world what you see and do not be deterred by those who neither speak our language nor understand our culture.
Allah ye7fathak.
Time to face the facts---we do not understand these people and ascribe motivations and desires to them that they do not possess. Look to Afghanistan where a man is sentenced to beheading because he converted from Islam to Christianity. Are there any demonstrations of outrage at the denigration of the Muslim faith because of the way Islam is depicted by such a sentence? Just one, somehwere, anywhere? See what outrages them and see what they apparently find just--see we cannot coexist with them in the modern world, realize they have no intention of even trying to do so. Our submission to the same faith that commands such beheadings is what their culture and lives are centered around. Islamism is the evil of our time, every bit as evil as Nazism and Communism. Religion of peace my ass....if they will not reject the archaic tenents around which it is based, there will be war---eventually they will go too far. It is inevitable.
I'm a 50 year old female U.S. citizen living in Texas. I've never read your blog until now. The comments you've gotten about ths atrocity are startling, even though we've sunk so far that I'm numb most of the time. I remember the Mei Lai (sp?) massacre and how outraged the US population was. This helped bring an end to the Viet Nam War. Now we have one atrocity after another, just as bad as Mei Lai and hardly anyone knows about it and those who do don't seem to care! Our soldiers should not be there because the rules of engagement are barbaric.
Truth about Iraqis says "Thank you for speaking the truth and having the bravery to stand up to those who neither care for our people nor want us to truly live free."
Question: Do you believe the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans are free? If you believe they are free, then why do you believe that the USA would act more favorably toward these people than we would to Iraqis? We occupied all of these countries in post-war situations. We helped them get started on a good path. We are trying to do the same in Iraq. Why wouldn't we? Do you think we have some inherent favoratism toward Koreans, Japanese, or Germans?
Treasure,
At least you aren't "preaching to the choir" ;-) with your blog. The people who come here have been attracted to you, and you have nourished us, snack-like with the quality of your blogs. Through you and all the efforts you made in school, after school, the sacrifices you made: not to join your friends at their beer party (ok poor joke, but this can be read and appreciated by us Americans who went through high school ;-), and desires to be on the school soccer soccer team, and turning off the TV, and spending time in the library instead of hanging out, all those hours you spent have helped build "a make-believe" bridge between the pitiful few of us who read your blogs. Outside of this, most of us wouldn't share spit with one another ;-)
This couldn't happen in Vietnam. We couldn't speak any better Vietnamese than we can now speak Arabic. The people all looked the same. I am sure hidden away there was some guy, Treasure of Hannoi, and maybe he died finally of natural causes. But if he or she was around, "you folks" only existed in our imaginations. And those kinds of imaginations in wartime at worst could get you killed, and at best wouldn't increase your popularity among the guys covering your back. In short if you were sent to Vietnam you could believe there were people out there among the inscrutible civilian popluation who would lay down their life to protect yours, but it was pretty risky to depend on that idea. Now, its a little different. We know you're out there. We can read your thoughts in our language (because we sure aren't going to study yours...hell, English was hard enough). So its a little different.
All your efforts, by yourself are a huge investment, but individually they are a tiny, tiny....."snack" for us to munch on for a few moments online. We sure won't bother thinking about you, (or the girl next door back home) the next time we stomp into some "civilian" house where everyone hates or fears us.
Fear and Hate. I don't know if you out there in blog land have ever experienced having people direct Fear or Hate at you. After "a while" it can change who you are or who you thought you were.
So, Treasure, the point I am trying to make with all these words:
1) I appreciate what you're doing, sport. Keep it up.
2) War is hell, ain't it?
3) By yourself, and comparatively, the terrorists, by themselves can't win. It takes an organization to win in these times. I mean BIG organizations. And if you're going to defeat the armies of somebody, it takes a really BIG organization to do the job....eventually. Individuals can care, individuals can dedicate their lives to revenge or suicide, or peace. But usual organizations don't carry such emotions for very long, and survive. Joining an organization means flatly giving up some of that emotional drive, in order to plan, and execute that plan, and evaluate the results.
So individuals, have to give up that emotional-irrational kind of high, unless they want to be "brainwashed" if they join a large organization that can make a difference in a society, IMO. So you say that those American GIs were a member of an organization and they were out of control. Yep. There is no guarantee. Besides you're talking about an organization that is basically trained to apply physical force even to the point of death. That's part of the mission. Despite its mission, the American military behaves in the ways of usual organizations.
Usual Organizations are good at forgetting, ignoring, putting people's moral concerns to sleep, dividing people between "insiders, who understand", and "outsiders who don't understand". Someone tell me this ain't so? And under the pressure of war, these boundaries become super emphasised.
4) All that said in #3, this era, in my opinion, is the age of the organization. IF people out there want peace it takes an Organization. IF you folks want Justice, it takes an organization. But not just any organization. There are alot of pip-squeak organizations out there; and how many of them can stand up to the US military? No it takes a special, world wide organization to stand up to any military. And by God it would have taken a world wide Organization to bring peaceful regime change to Iraq 3 years ago.
But, you know, people get impatient. And they sit among the people who think just like they do and among themselves they draw up a list of "Pros" and "Cons" on whether its a good idea to enforce their values on others or to seek Justice through working with an admittedly defective organization (one which they, by the way, helped create, and later disowned). Clearly the Pros were definitely more convincing. I can appreciate that the President shares my same weaknesses. The Executive branch of the world's super power puts on his pants one leg at a time.
By now you're thinking that not much has changed in the past 150 years, for that's the time frame I'm thinking about for organizations and technology. But that ain't so. I am just saying we still have a road ahead, the suffering that Treasure is pointing out for us to share can be extended or shortened depending on how much we truly wish to work together.
Again draw up a list of "Pros" and "Cons". What do you come out with? Why?
Treasure,
You seem to sway and shift your thoughts.
Why don't you watch this video and see if it alters your thought about soldiers in Iraq.
http://www.bucksargent.neptune.com
Watch "OUTM Tribute" (Once Upon a Time in Mosul)
Dear Treasure of Baghdad,
thank you for telling the truth.
But it is very, very sad that, among the American readers, only the 'female US citizen from Texas' has made an adequate comment.
All the other American answers are like those of WW2 Nazis: 'Ah, it's the fault of those uentermenschen!'.
The ones by 'Original Jeff' are especially hypocritical and disgusting.
Every people on earth, Iraqis included, has the God-given right to resist a beastly foreign occupation; and when the occupiers engage continuously in atrocities, like the US troops do, they show the immorality of their cause, and lose the war even faster...
They were doing that in Vietnam as well: and were kicked out, eventually.
Saddams men and Zarqawi
have chosen to fight a guerilla
war amongst the civillians of Iraq.
In these situations innocents will
die ... I do not know why the marines went into those houses and killed innocents ....
They probably snapped ...
they wanted to brutalize a neighborhood for allowing roadside
bombs to be placed in the street.
Its been 3 years of Roadside bombs
The Iraqi politicians bicker and bicker ... the roadside bombs continue and soldiers snap ...
Did that neighborhood ever form a community watch to prevent or warn
Americans of Roadside Bombs ???
Did American warplanes bomb that villiage or Falluja in the first three weeks of the war ???
The point being sections of Iraq
are hostile to US forces AND
the new Iraqi police AND the new Iraqi Army.
Innocent civilians are mixed in
with hostile civilians.
Marine units that have rotated
into areas where Roadside Bombs
were planted before and they probably expected improvement after elections ... expected cooperation
from the certain regions ...
considering that EVERY single
villiage can be annihilated
using air power one would think
that villiagers would cooperate
knowing they could have all been
killed in a much easier way ...
But No the roadside bombs continue ....
Brave men of Saddam bringing
war to civilian neighborhoods
Our Soldiers are not Machines
they are on edge evevery day
and some days they get snap
All these good decent Iraqi
must come foward and cooperate with their new Government ....
They need to turn on the insurgents ... its been three years three elections
Help End the Roadside Bombs ....
Help end the car bombs ....
Support the new Iraqi Government
Thats the path toward getting American soldiers out of Iraq
Original Jeff,
Come on, are you serious with your question? Haven't we talked about Japan, Germany and Korea before?
Neither of the three countries mentioned had the most prized energy commodity on the planet. Oil.
Iraq is swimming in it. Russia wants a piece, China wants a piece, France wants a piece. The US had to ensure it got all of it. (See Abizaid's quote below)
2. Germany is a Christian country, the US military is for the most part Christian.
Japanese and Korean culture were never at odds, or perceived to be at odds, with the Christian west.
3. Iraq is Muslim. Muslim-Christian relations have been strained for a thousand years.
Therefore, statements such as the ones below are rather common:
Chris J. Hanley of AP writes:
"Today it's Joe who mans the M-240 atop a Humvee, warily watching the sides of the road, an unlikely Army corporal at 48, a father who came here for revenge, a Christian missionary on a crusade against Islam, and a man who, after six months at war, is ready to go home."
Consider also this quote from said article:
"I don't really have love for Muslim people," Johnson said. "I'm sure there are good Muslims. I try not to be racist." Although he hasn't read the Quran, or spoken with Muslims, he has "heard" the Islamic holy book "teaches to kill Jews and infidels. And it's hard to love people who hate you."
More religious reference to Satanic Islam:
Outspoken US Christian evangelical broadcaster Pat Robertson has accused Muslims of planning world domination, and said some were "satanic" ...
These people are crazed fanatics, and I want to say it now: I believe it's motivated by demonic power. It is satanic and it's time we recognize what we're dealing with".
He went on to say that "Islam is not a religion of peace", and "the goal of Islam, ladies and gentlemen whether you like it or not, is world domination".
"The enemy has got a face. He’s called Satan. He lives in Fallujah. And we’re going to destroy him.’"
Lt. Col. Gareth Brandi, battalion commander in Fallujah,
BBC, November 7
Consider also this quote by General Abizaid from Reuters:
Abizaid also said the United States and its allies have a vital interest in the oil-rich region.
"Ultimately it comes down to the free flow of goods and resources on which the prosperity of our own nation and everybody else in the world depend," he said.
Did the US military presence in Japan, Germany and Korea produce such atrocities:
Lasseter described in vivid detail how a .50-caliber machine gun, manned by a 21-year-old Texan name Michael Pena on the roof of the schoolhouse, blasted an unarmed civilian on the street into oblivion. Horrified soldiers rushed to the Iraqi, or what was left of him--his organs were now slithering out--and watched him die, as he praised God and muttered, "Why? Why?"
"Haji, I don't know," an American soldier replied, with Lasseter right there. A few days later, Lasseter found the gunner, Pena, still manning the machine gun on the same roof. "No one told me why I'm putting my life on the line in Samarra, and you know why they didn't?" Pena asked. "Because there is no f------ reason."
There is also the case of how the US military views Iraqis - as subhumans:
I would also like you Original Jeff, to read the following, from AFP:
US military training has created troops so desensitised to violence that battleground brutality in Iraq is rampant - and has helped fuel the bloody fighting seen there today, a new book released in France by a former marine says.
Jimmy Massey, a former staff sergeant, told AFP that the daily attacks now confronting US-led forces and Iraqi civilians were "because of the brutality that the Iraqi people saw at the start of the invasion".
In his book, Kill! Kill! Kill!, he says he and other marines in his unit killed dozens of unarmed Iraqi civilians because of an exaggerated sense of threat, and that they often experienced sexual-type thrills doing so.
The book was being released first in France - and in French - because, he said, "I didn't find an American publisher".
Furthermore, Lisa Meyers of MSNBC reported the following:
There are new allegations that heavily armed private security contractors in Iraq are brutalizing Iraqi civilians. In an exclusive interview, four former security contractors told NBC News that they watched as innocent Iraqi civilians were fired upon, and one crushed by a truck. The contractors worked for an American company paid by U.S. taxpayers. The Army is looking into the allegations.
The four men are all retired military veterans: Capt. Bill Craun, Army Rangers; Sgt. Jim Errante, military police; Cpl. Ernest Colling, U.S. Army; and Will Hough, U.S. Marines. All went to Iraq months ago as private security contractors.
"I went there for the money," says Hough.
"I'm a patriot," says Craun.
"You can't turn off being a soldier," says Colling.
They worked for an American company named Custer Battles, hired by the Pentagon to conduct dangerous missions guarding supply convoys. They were so upset by what they saw, three quit after only one or two missions.
"What we saw, I know the American population wouldn't stand for," says Craun.
I do not think there were private military gung-ho contractors running rampant in Germany, Japan and Korea.
But there is more.
You talk of freedom in Iraq? Is that like the Savak-inspired freedom in Iran after the CIA overthrow of Mosadegh?
Maybe it is, as the Christian Science Monitor says below:
The accusations of abuse range from reports of prisoner torture and death of detainees to the arbitrary arrest and abuse at the hands of inexperienced and untrained police officers.
Jabbar told the Monitor that during a raid he was on in January at a suspected insurgent hideout, three detainees died after being severely beaten by Iraqi security patrols.
The Iraqi Association to Defend Journalists is investigating several cases in which security forces allegedly beat or intimidated Iraqi journalists. And in a report issued in January, Human Rights Watch said that torture and abuse by Iraqi authorities had become "routine and commonplace."
These are the soldiers the US is priming to take over security in Iraq.
Nice.
But where does all the above come from?
One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.
The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".
"The US troops view things in very simplistic terms. It seems hard for them to reconcile subtleties between who supports what and who doesn't in Iraq. It's easier for their soldiers to group all Iraqis as the bad guys. As far as they are concerned Iraq is bandit country and everybody is out to kill them."
"When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad, they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though the area they are attacking may be in the middle of a densely populated residential area.
"They may well kill the terrorists in the barrage but they will also kill and maim innocent civilians. That has been their response on a number of occasions. It is trite, but American troops do shoot first and ask questions later. They are very concerned about taking casualties and have even trained their guns on British troops, which has led to some confrontations between soldiers.
Let's not forget that Germany was entirely annihilated into submission and was seeking US military occupation to save them from the Communist Soviets.
Japan was willed to accept the occupation by Emperor Hirohito.
Iraqis never wanted occupation. Many wanted Saddam and the Baathists gone, but not be replaced by something more horrid.
A free Iraq, a democratic Iraq is a threat to the region.
An Iraq where all its citizens are equal and allowed to freely go to school and educate themselves is a threat to the region.
Iraq, which is 80% Arab, is an integral part of the Arab nation. At one point it was the most powerful Arab nation.
A free, united Iraq would take its position as an Arab leader and call for a free and independent Palestine.
This was Iraq during the days of the monarchy. This was Iraq before the Baathists and after the Baathists.
And I suspect, that a strong and unified Iraq would press calls for northern Kuwait and the Bubyan Islands.
A unified Iraq would have a strong military which no one in the region wants to see.
A unified Iraq would nationalize its oil industry, as the Baathists did in 1972, the eve of when things began to go horribly wrong in Iraq.
What happens when Iraq nationalizes its oil? Oil companies shut out.
Incidentally, Mosadegh did the same when he took power in Iran.
In the 1930s-1958, Iraqis resented the fact their oil was not nationalized.
Iraq's WMDs are its people. Their innovation, their honor, their history, their culture, their heritage.
Why else are its scientists, technicians, journalists, teachers, philosophers, poets, musicians, and technocrats being systematically killed?
And powers knows this. Which is why you see the situation unraveling in Iraq today.
Well done, BT, thank you for the post. I have read the story four days ago in the French Newspaper the Liberation and I translate to you their conclusion - seen by the free press of the world:
“ These charges are checked by the investigation; it would represent a serious case of deliberate murder of Iraqi citizens by American soldiers since the beginning of the war in Iraq. It will also raise an ‘unprecedented’ suspicion of the US military news coverage delivered by the Pentagon media”
Now this is the issue, and will always remain so as long as we have alien troops on the grounds. A great thinker once wrote “wars are about racism, ‘lies’ & finance” and he adds “if one can master those three basics then almost every war could ‘look’ winnable.”
Just think of how many of those killings had been reported falsely since the beginning of the invasion, and how many of their soldiers NOW are in cringing stage!
And, of course, you will have those usual ignoramus Americans who will draw lines of foolish demagoguery examples of other people’s miseries to justify the cold blooded murder - miseries caused by the same perpetrators. And with those justifications they are desperately trying to clear their conscious. They are fool; they still think they have conscious.
Jeffrey,
“Every day in the last week insurgents have killed Iraqi citizens and NOT ONE WORD from you.”
You are right. I haven’t mentioned a word about that in the last period. But do you know why? Because these insurgents are criminals and gangs unlike the US army, which is supposed to be one of the most respected army in the world. It is a criminal’s job to kill innocents, but is it applied to the US army? I don’t think so.
I think, as usual, you and the others misunderstood the message in the post. It is not an attack against the US troops. I wrote it to let the world know that the good things the US is doing is not being welcomed because there are some of its troops are abusing and killing civilians whether by mistake or not.
“Accident or cold-blooded murder?”
Heehee. Of course, cold-blooded murder. But did you ask yourself who brought these terrorists here or who created them to kill and slaughter?
Original Jeff,
“How many times have you heard of U.S. soldiers in Japan, Germany, or Korea shooting and killing innocent Japanese, Korean, or German civilians? ANSWER: *Never*”
Right! But is it the same time? same people? same traditions? Shouldn’t the US administration take that into consideration?
“The problem is NOT mainly with the American soldiers.”
Well, I cannot say the problem is mainly with the American soldiers. But at the same time, some of them are distorting the image of their army.
PJ,
“it by no means gives you the right to portray every American soldier as some bloodthirsty lunatic. Let us not forget that these men and women have spilled their blood on your soil so that you and your children can have a better future.”
You also misunderstood my advice to the US forces. When I said that I meant that mistakes enlarge hatred and gaps between both sides. In more than one occasion, I said I was happy by the change the US forces first made. But as all the other Iraqis, we were disappointed by the continuous deterioration and lack of control.
i support what you have said about the troops who are being killed on the Iraqi soil. That’s why I wrote this post. I know they have families and children they care about. I wanted them to read this and consider it as an advice in order in the future when they raid a house, they should imagine their children, wives, and parents before they shoot. Let them shoot the terrorist inside, but there is no need to kill his entire family.
Truth about Iraqis,
Thank you for your feelings. I am honored to have you as a friend along with all other friends, Iraqis and non-Iraqis, who appreciate the true meaning of friendship.
Anonymous,
“Look to Afghanistan where a man is sentenced to beheading because he converted from Islam to Christianity.”
Umm, there is no similarity between the two countries. Iraq was not a religious extremist country like Afghanistan. The religious parties that were in the opposition are now in power. What do you expect? A secular country run by religious men? Of course, not. Muslims and Christians lived together for hundreds of years and still do. I have Iraqi Christian friend and another Muslim whose mother is Christian!
“Islamism is the evil of our time, every bit as evil as Nazism”
I think you are wrong because as in any religion, there is extremism. There are Jewish and Christian extremists as well as Muslim extremists.
“Religion of peace my ass....”
Umm, I think it’s not right to accuse the whole religion because some of its believers did something wrong. The Marines who killed the innocent civilians were not followers of the “religion of peace”. If I think like you, do I have to consider Christianity and Judaism as evil?
Edo-River,
“The terrorists, by themselves can't win.”
I am sure of that, but I am afraid this will take a very long time where many Americans and Iraqis die.
“But, you know, people get impatient.”
Absolutely right!
“The suffering that Treasure is pointing out for us to share can be extended or shortened depending on how much we truly wish to work together.”
THANK YOU!
Anonymous,
“Did that neighborhood ever form a community watch to prevent or warn
Americans of Roadside Bombs ???”
Of course, not. there is no authority in the whole Anbar province, where Haditha is located. In the coming future I am going to write about how insurgents are active in these areas which will make your hair stand.
“Help End the Roadside Bombs ....
Help end the car bombs .... “
We will!
Nadir,
Thanks for the translation of the Liberation’s analysis.
Again, I think most of the readers ignored the main aim of the entry which is to make the US forces realize that for every action, there is a reaction. The situation is not as simple as most people see. It’s a dangerous creation of a generation, represented by Eman and her brother for instance, that will live their entire life looking for revenge. Why shouldn’t all of us cooperate and stop the killings by both? Was I right when I advised the US forces to be accurate in identifying the enemy? As I mentioned to Jeffrey, I addressed the US army because it is not a criminal gang. It is an organized army that has recorded some good things in the history. Until, now, I haven’t heard from any of the US troops for their opinion. I hope they will read this. I would love to hear their opinion.
Bests,
Baghdad Treasure.
Jeffrey,
I have deleted your last comment as I don't permit any insult on my blog. Let's discuss the issue politely to reach a good result for both of us, Iraqis and Americans. ok?
what is a shame?
1) Its a shame that this postings related blog comments, will be repeated by new folks who come here in the next month.
2) It's a shame that even some of us will be repeating the same arguements if not on this blog then on another next year about this time.
3) It's a shame that the WWII generation, came home and didn't tell their stories in the same details. This war is the same for the civilians and GI's and police as it was for the folks in WWII. I asked my uncle and he wouldn't talk about it. I think I know the reason, now too ;-) Clue: It has to do with what we are discussing here.
4) It's a shame that 20 years after WWII we went through the same thing with Vietnam. (Spare me ya'll, don't say, "But that was different..."ok?)
5) It's a shame that 30 years or so after Vietnam, we're doing the same thing in Iraq. We're "learning" the same lessons.
Now ya'll I'm a "red blooded" Amurikan from Dixie, and ...somewhat proud of it, I've shot and killed since I was 6 years old when I got my first gun. I grew up talking trash about sending the n*****s back to Afriki (to borrow my granddad's pronounciation and terminology). I didn't wave the Dixie battle flag but I shure didn't see any harm either. I remember when the Yankee college students came to towns nearby to register them Negroes the vote. And I heard mutterings about what we'd do if we catched them (those long-haird p******s) out after dark on one of those country roads. You folks from the States, know what I mean. There are two-legged snakes can be alot meaner than the kind that slither on their bellies. So what am I getting at?
I'll tell you.
1) American can match any mean poisonous cuss from Iraq with one of our own. You talk terrorist and I can find a serial killer who's killed more or would if we'd give him a chance.
2) As far as instutional racism, America had that. As far as class prejudice, we got that now. As far as government de facto supported genocide, we did that to the Injuns, who by some of our our laws, were not humans, so eliminating them was the same as killing buffalo. So we can't claim to be holier than anyone else. In God we trust right? ;-)
3) I studied world history in high school from a Jew from New York City. and he rubbed our noses (only stayed 1 year too ;-) in these two points: we were no better people than anyone else, individual to individual-among the non-Christian countries. And we were no worse than anyone among the Christian countries.
4) So this will eventually settle out in Iraq. But the lesson is that my relatives' babies are no different than their great grandparent's babies, or their grandparents who went into Vietnam, or their parents who are in Iraq.
We're going to go out and do the same damn thing again in roughly 25-30 years in another country, unless the rest of the world can stop us. It's just human nature.
Treasure, what I am saying is that we do to ourselves, to our children, our wives, homosexuals, minorities, majorities, weak people what we are doing to you and your peopleb in Iraq. And we ask God for forgiveness, and then we feel all right.
BT,
But did you ask yourself who brought these terrorists here or who created them to kill and slaughter?
First of all, the Multinational Forces did NOT fly in the Jihadi terrorists. The first group of terrorists in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just before the outbreak of the war. We killed many of them, but more came in. How?
In the beginning, the Sunni Baathists aided the foreign Jihadis, offering them places to stay, logistics, and pointed out where the Americans were. And then over time the Sunni Baathists realized that they couldn't kill Americans easily (Fallujah, for example), so who did they ask the terrorists to target? The Shia and the Iraqi military. Together the Sunni Baathists and the foreign terrorists continue to target Shia and Iraqi military and police.
And this is still going on today. Sunni Baathists point out where the Shia and Iraq Army forces are and help the terrorists make car bombs and then set them off to do the devil's work in Iraq. And now the Sunni Baathists have allowed the terrorists to target as many Iraqi civilians as they want because they see that their only hope now is civil war. The Sunni Baathists and the foreign terrorists have been the two working halves of the insurgency, which guys like TAI support (go figure).
Let me repeat. The Multinational Forces did NOTt bring the terrorists in and we certainly did NOT "create" them. On the contrary, we have spent every hour or every day trying to hunt them down and kill them.
The Sunni Baathists -- TAI's "resistance" -- are the ones who invited the terrorists in, sheltered them, and are still using them to kill Iraqi citizens daily.
*
Jeffrey,
“The first group of terrorists in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just before the outbreak of the war. We killed many of them, but more came in. How?”
You are partially right about this. Saddam invited many of them before the war. As far as I know, most of them were killed by the US troops when they entered Baghdad. I saw most of them fighting. I saw some of them killed during the war. The biggest number of them came after the invasion when the US troops let the borders unprotected and loose. It was very easy to cross to Iraq walking, not even by car!
BT,
You are partially right about this. Saddam invited many of them before the war. As far as I know, most of them were killed by the US troops when they entered Baghdad. I saw most of them fighting. I saw some of them killed during the war.
Hey, we AGREE! Cool.
The biggest number of them came after the invasion when the US troops let the borders unprotected and loose. It was very easy to cross to Iraq walking, not even by car!
I don't disagree, but Iraq has a VERY LONG border with Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, and Iran. There's no way we could have kept the terrorists from entering. The question then becomes who housed these people who had obvious FOREIGN accents? I think you'll agree that the Sunni Baathists were responsible for the housing and logistics provided to the Jihadis. I've read many first-hand reports that detailed the collaboration between the Sunni Baathists and the foreign Jihadis.
Ghaith Abdul Ahad went to Fallujah and interviewed a Baathist who was running a joint Baathist-Jihadi group (a "muj cell,"). Here he describes the Baathist leader:
One of the local muj cell leaders, Abu Tahrir ("father of liberation"), is complaining how part of the muj corps has deserted and joined the Americans. He is in his late 30s, overweight and a bit grim; a typical former mukhabarat officer who mixes bits of the Koran with chunks of nationalist and Ba'athist ranting.
It's a fine piece of reporting by a former Iraqi architect.
*
Well, only last week I read about this incident in a German paper, or at least it's very likely to be the same.
The paper mentioned that a couple of US soldiers took revenge for a terrorist bomb last November by executing 15 innocent civillians, including women and children. It also says the event will be investigated. Hopefully they'll lock 'em away for a very, very long time.
P.S.: Fresh post-Germany was a few years ago. ;)
Also US soldiers back then were known for "guarding" e.g. food stores by staring fixedly at some point high in the air while poor post-war German children stole food for their families. Seems that sort has become very rare these days.
@ [The first group of terrorists in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just before the outbreak of the war.]
The first group of ‘terrorists’ (none of them killed Iraqis then) in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just ‘because’ of the war outbreak!
Well done USA! Another living verdict to your stupid war. Of course, if the invasion had failed, then Saddam would have buried them alive - as he did to the Al Tawabien of Iran along with the innocent Shiites in the south back in 1991 (another US war)
The USA, on the other hand, was dumb enough to keep the borders unsecured while it was busy sharing the loots.
The first The first group of ‘terrorists’ (none of them killed Iraqis then) in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just ‘because’ of the war outbreak!
BS Nader… Hussein has long been a philanthropist of terror.
- Abu Nidal lived comfortably in Baghdad as far back as 1999.
- Abu Abbas escaped the Italian authorities by flashing his Iraqi Diplomatic Papers.
- Abdul Rahman Yassin, wanted in the 1993 WTC attack lived with his father in Baghdad.
- Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, fled Afghanistan for medical treatment then opened the Ansar Al Islam terrorist training camp in Northern Iraq.
The list goes on and on. This stupid war has been a long time coming. We have been attacked over and over gain by these monsters and little or nothing was done to retaliate.
It’s unfortunate that innocent people are caught in the crossfire, but how long did you think we were going to sit back and wait for the next murderous rampage?
I don't know about some of these Americans that mouth off about how we shouldn't be there and boohoo and all that other crap....our friends lived in Iraq - they are Shiite---they wanted Americans over there and still do ----until the idiot Syrians, Afgans, Egyptians, etc....stop coming over the borders and blowing up people (including Iraqis) the US military will have to be there to help. Tempers are high during these conflicts and war breeds fear. I'm sure those soldiers snapped - it's not right if there was wrong doing. But they don't know if those Bathists are going to send kids in all strapped up with a bomb---woman and children don't mean anything to them....jsut killing.
The majority of the Iraqis want the Americans there right now - it's the soonies and Bathists who want them out - and isn't it interesting that the American media seems to find them to interview? They are only %20 of the population. Find the Shiite from the small towns - they will tell you. Mostly the soonies are the only one's with computers too - so you read all the blogs written by soonies....they were better off because Saddam didn't hate the soonies quite as much as the Kurds and the Shiite.
I apologize profusely for the actions of these men. War is hell and it's aweful that innocent people ahve to die. No one seemed as concerned about what some of the insurgents/other Iraqis did to innocent people - American and Iraqi alike....
I just wish the American and European press would report what was really going on - too many people are tainted with libralism here in the US because of the libral media!
New US war crime uncovered - Read BBC report below:
Come, come Petunia, how removed are you from the events in Iraq to refer to Sunnis as soonies.
You say you want the American Press and European Press to report what is going on?
Fine. Here you go. The BBC, that stands for British Broadcasting Company, ran this today:
Another veteran, Specialist Jody Casey, who was a scout sniper in Baquba, said he had also seen innocent civilians being killed.
Bombs "go off and you just zap any farmer that's close to you", he said.
At that time, when we first got down there, you could basically kill anyone you wanted
Specialist Jody Casey
Mr Casey said he did not take part in any atrocities himself, but was advised to always carry a shovel. He could then plant this on any civilian victims to make it look as though they were digging roadside bombs.
My, my. Accident or cold-blooded revenge?
Petunia, I would also ask you to refer to the MSNBC, and CSM, and AFP, and Telegraph (all western - British or US) which I posted above.
Should enlighten you, methinks.
TAI,
Please disregard any of the above comments. We wouldn't want their contents to place any strain on your mind. We've been warned by your doctor that your condition is, at best, fragile and asking you to differentiate between accidental and targeted deaths might cause a relapse and force you into the hospital once again.
*
TAI,
Hey, here's something we can agree on. Both in Gordon and Trainor's "Cobra II" and in a report by the Pentagon on Iraqi military around the time of the war we've been learning the extent to which Saddam Hussein's paranoid ineptitude reduced the Iraqi military into a modern-day version of the Keystone Kops. I know you hated Saddam, and with good reason. No one has done more to destroy Iraq and no one has murdered more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein. I've never heard ONCE in the Iraqi blogosphere anyone come to his defence.
For a history buff like yourself, I'd order "Cobra II," which is an even-handed account of OIF, including an analyis of the mistakes made since April 9, 2003. Last weekend on C-Span there was a panel with the two authors -- you should be able to get the video/audio from the C-Span website.
TAI, I haven't completely given up on you yet. Deep inside I know that there is a part of you that wants to accept the truth, even if it means accepting the brutal facts about the Arab people in today's world.
*
TAI et al.,
Here's the pdf for the Pentagon report:
Iraqi Perspectives Project: A View of Operation Iraqi Freedom from Saddam's Senior Leadership.
I'm reading it right now. Join me and let me know what you think.
*
TAI,
I suggest scrolling down to page 80 of the Pentagon report. As an Iraqi patriot, after reading the next ten pages, you will want to hang Saddam yourself. Trust me, just read and you will want to put a bullet through his head.
*
For anyone who wants to read the most riveting part of the "Iraqi Perspectives Project," I suggest scrolling down to pages 123-50, Chapter VI, "Doomed Execution," which views the Iraq War from the perspective of the Iraqi officers, who had been given the impossible task of trying to execute a war plan created by an paranoid dictator who was more concerned about internal than external threats. According to the authors of the study, there was at least one competent person on the Iraqi side, Lieutenant General Hamdani.
*
@ Anon
[Nader… Hussein has long been a philanthropist of terror.]
[- Abu Nidal lived comfortably in Baghdad as far back as 1999.
This man was under]
Saddam killed Abu Nidal in Baghdad– a deal struck with Jordan for that. Abu Nidal is the equivalent of Israel’s Mossad’s psycho murderers.
[- Abu Abbas escaped the Italian authorities by flashing his Iraqi Diplomatic Papers.]
Irrelevant! Carlos was flying on passports from 30 different countries including the US.
[- Abdul Rahman Yassin, wanted in the 1993 WTC attack lived with his father in Baghdad.]
This criminal was under house arrest in Iraq for his staunch support for Kuwait (your great ally) during the 1991 war. Tyrant likes to keep its friends close and its enemies closer. Ask Bush for some leads!
[- Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, fled Afghanistan for medical treatment then opened the Ansar Al Islam terrorist training camp in Northern Iraq.]
lol…please carry on helping me to prove my point. “Northern Iraq” was under Kurds and CIA provisional government during that time. It was YOU who harbored him. Just as you harbored Bib Laden and the Talabans for years in Afghanistan. Alas, for those souls who died in NY.
However, the entire list of Central America’s war monsters, who graduated from the schools of the Americas in the USA, along with murderers like Nixon and Kissinger – not to mention the current team of Bush – as well as corporate terrorists like Union Carbide lived and still live in your country, and no one could get to them or ‘retaliate’ because simply the US is a militaristic beast in a den. And this, anon, shows that your civilization is driven by the law of the jungle!
nader,
“The first group of ‘terrorists’ (none of them killed Iraqis then) in Iraq, in fact, had been invited in by Saddam Hussein himself just ‘because’ of the war outbreak!”
You are absolutely right! I have never seen any one of them killing an Iraqi. The problem is there are people in the world do not understand what occupying a country means, what true reistance means. They even do not understand that there is resistance in Iraq and there is terrorism. Reisitance is the right of every man on earth whose country is invaded and occupied. For instance, if America is occupied by another country, wouldn’t Americans defend and liberate their country? People should not mix terrorism that is killing Iraqi civilians with the real resistance that is fighting the occupation. Logic!
petunia,
“our friends lived in Iraq - they are Shiite---they wanted Americans over there and still do ----until the idiot Syrians, Afgans, Egyptians, etc....stop coming over the borders and blowing up people (including Iraqis) the US military will have to be there to help.”
Ok, I am a Shiite. I considered myself a friend of the US troops for some time till I changed my mind. I wanted the Americans here, which I eventually regretted. I thought they would be real friends.
” But they don't know if those Bathists are going to send kids in all strapped up with a bomb---woman and children don't mean anything to them....jsut killing.”
Oh c’mon! That doesn’t give the right to kill them. These murdered civilians were in their night clothes without explosive belts. They were sitting in piece in their houses.
“The majority of the Iraqis want the Americans there right now - it's the soonies and Bathists who want them out –“
I think you don’t have an idea of what is going on. As if you listened to Bush on March 17, 2003 and then read this entry! If you go to the streets, you’ll find how people are fed up and so much disappointed by the presence of the American troops. When people see them, they regret the whole thing because they were deceived because nothing has changed. Even the Shiites you are talking about it changed their minds. Go to Sadr City, one of the largest Shiite districts in Baghdad. If a US tank or humvee enter the district, they will be in trouble. Dozens go out and dismiss them.
TAI,
Thank you so much for the links you have provided. These back up what I say. You are a sincere and true son of Iraq.
Jeffrey,
“As an Iraqi patriot, after reading the next ten pages, you will want to hang Saddam yourself. Trust me, just read and you will want to put a bullet through his head.”
First, I’d like to say that TAI is a true Iraqi pateriot. Secondly, we all want Saddam to be hanged. The problem is you are providing us with a Pentagon report which we no longer believe in. the first military report about Haditha case was fake and that was said by the military itself after the start of the probe and after the video tape showed up. You have to know that Iraqis are no longer fools who believe in every word the military says. Why don’t you accept this? I tell you, if you ask any Iraqi in the street about this, he would tell “what the hell? Who cares about what the pentagon statements? We see everything before our eyes.”
It seems that despite all that has happened between Shia and Sunni blood being spilled (and others, I am equally concerned about) that there is still hope for a peace if the political leaders can get to know one another.
I don't know how well do the Major Sunni and Shia leaders of the various factions know each other's personal lives. Do they share meals together. Research has shown time and time again with enemies, if they can sit down and eat tea and biscuits together, they can begin to negotiate in a reasonable manner.
Oh Yeah, I want to emphasise what treasure said, in case some don't read carefully.
It doesn't matter what is true and what is lie. The important matter is what people believe. Sure go ahead and show me a 100000000000000000000 page report and photographs, and PowerPoint presentation about your proof. If I don't believe you, if I don't trust you, all that is waste of paper! a waste of my time!!!!!!
This is common sense. Yet Americans like myself have to go to university and study in Psychology 101 to learn such a common sense thing as I men6tioned above, !!!!
Now, as Treasure has said, there is very very little trust of American intentions, even giving candy to children, looks like there is some motive behind it. Each American soldier, by himself, may be a nice kind man/woman, but they are not individuals in Iraq. They follow orders, they must obey the organization and the US military has very little trust among people.
In reading jeffrey's comments and others who support Pres. Bush. they defend themselves as individuals, or they defend the individual soldiers. I REPEAT the soldiers and the individuals are not the issue, the issue of the breakdown of trust is because of the organization they are members of. Also ask the American soldier, "How many Iraqi do you trust with your life?" I am not sure this is a fair question, but what do you think is his answer? I will tell you.
Iraqi citizen: Do you trust me with your life?
American solder: "I can't make that decision, BECAUSE even if I wanted to, I AM A MEMBER of the US military organization. For me to trust you, might risk the mission of the organization."
Baghdad Treasure,
I learn from your blog, pray for you and wish you peace.
You draw a distinction between resistance and terrorism: "They even do not understand that there is resistance in Iraq and there is terrorism. Reisitance is the right of every man on earth whose country is invaded and occupied. For instance, if America is occupied by another country, wouldn’t Americans defend and liberate their country? People should not mix terrorism that is killing Iraqi civilians with the real resistance that is fighting the occupation. Logic!"
It's not so clear to me, an American, that I would resist occupation. If an invader came to take away my freedom, to do harm to my country, or to steal from my country, I probably would resist. If an invader came to overthrow a despot, establish trade relations (this is the "oil" argument), and leave, I probably would not.
Perhaps I'm naive, but I really believe that the quickest way for Iraqis to get Americans out, three years ago, would have been to avoid resistance and cooperate in resisting the terrorists. If there had been no anti-American resistance, the infrastructure would in place, the Americans would be gone or leaving, and Iraq would be ruling itself, and probably enjoying religious tolerance unlike any other Middle Eastern country.
You're right, the distinction between resistance and terrorism is unclear to me. Is this it: if a man looks out his window and see some foreign religious zealot planting an IED, and the man stays quiet, then he is "resisting." But if the IED explodes with Iraqis or children nearby, then it becomes an act of terrorism, which the man deplores.
Michael Hardt
Michael,
What would you do if the invader killed thousands of your countrymen with missiles, bombs and chemical weapons? What would you do if you suddenly found out that friends and family have been taken to prisons for no reason and being tortured there, putting a stick in the behind of your younger brother? What would you do? And your sweetheart at high school had been raped by these forces in that prison? What would you do? What would you do if these forces leaders suddenly said in order to protect our people back home we now declare the U.S soil the base for war on terror so we can save our people at home from going thru terrible attacks in this war so terrorist come on to the U.S we are ready to fight you here? What would you do?
Baghdad Treasure,
Thank you for this strong post.
The quickest solution to minimize these war crimes is really by making occupation troops accountable to Iraqi law. Today they are immune to prosecution under Iraqi law and it is clear too many of them view that as a sign that Iraqis life is worth nothing.
I honestly believe that if they were accountable to Iraqi law we would have less Iraqis killed by them.
As a patriotic American citizen -- as someone whose only approach to a 'religious experience' was when he walked into Constitution Hall in Philadelphia, as someone who still believes in the ideas and ideals of America, I want to apologize for the way some of my countrymen have written here.
I'd like to remind them that, if we are fighting for anything there, it is democracy, and one of the key ideas of democracy is that law, justice, and ethical behaviour are not just for our friends, not just for the 'good guys,' but that these are rights that even the worst of us have. We are trying Saddam, not executing him. We tried Goebbels and Goering, and would have tried Hitler if he hadn't suicided. And that was one of the most glorious decisions of our history, that a justice of our Supreme Court should go to help hold this trial.
We don't and haven't always lived up to this ideal, and those who hate us can give a list of our sins, a list which those of us who love this country can agree to without losing that love.
But we fought a Civil War and two world wars without the sort of atrocities that we were told 'Armies ALWAYS engage in.' We WERE different. And in Vietnam we finally lost it, and created the horror that was My Lai, but we had guts enough to admit this, and freedom enough that it was our reporters that told the story.
Again we have made horrible, ugliness and signed it American, in Haditha as we did at Abu Gharaib. Yes we should condemn the evil of the bombers, yes they have killed many of their own citizens, but we have to admit we were wrong, and seriously wrong, so wrong that i have come to believe that we cannot now recover.
I'd like to suggest that you read my blog for further comments, and other entries to see who I am, besides a very sad, very patriotic America, who knows true patriotism is not covering up mistakes but correcting them.
http://jimbentn.blogspot.com/
Michael,
“If an invader came to take away my freedom, to do harm to my country, or to steal from my country, I probably would resist. If an invader came to overthrow a despot, establish trade relations (this is the "oil" argument), and leave, I probably would not.”
Ok, I’ll tell you how I, as an average Iraqi citizen, live and I let the judgment to you. I go out to work everyday in fear, is this freedom? I can’t hang out with my friends as I used to before the war, is that freedom? I sleep with my gun next to my pillow, is that freedom? I am locked in my house starting from 7 p.m., is that freedom? I see the people of my country killed in hundreds, is that freedom? I see how newly religious parties controlling the country the same way Saddam used or maybe worse? Is that freedom? I get a lot of money as a salary but I can’t use it or enjoy it, is that freedom? Every time I see my 7-month-old niece, I cry for her unknown future, is this freedom? Every day I call my friends I see them fed up and pissed because of the situation, is this freedom? I have nightmares continuously, is this freedom?
Everyone knows that Iraqis suffered a lot under Saddam, but we are suffering more. We are not enjoying the freedom America brought. We are dying more than before. Our country is being divided, life became impossible, and thousands of families are fleeing more than under Saddam. The list is fill and I can’t enlist all of its contents.
Once, a friend of mine was called a “Saddamist” just because he said that we lived better under Saddam. He resembled the situation like this: there was a bridge where a huge stone blocked the path but left a small space for people to move through. When the “friends” came to move the stone, they preferred to blow it up to get rid of it. Do you know what happened? The stone was removed and so was the bridge! And I think you know what I mean.
Although we were oppressed under Saddam, but we had some sort of freedom that we lack now. I wouldn’t have worried to go back home at 2 a.m. now, I have to be home at 7 p.m. Otherwise, I might be shot by an insurgent, an Iraqi security man, or an American soldier patrolling in the streets. And by the way, I am writing this at the time I hear shootings and mortar explosions outside. Do I dare to go out and see what is going on? Of course, not. I have just made my gun ready to press the trigger whenever danger is close to me or my family. Do you call this freedom?!
Aka Jim Benton,
THANK YOU!
“If there had been no anti-American resistance, the infrastructure would in place, the Americans would be gone or leaving, and Iraq would be ruling itself, and probably enjoying religious tolerance unlike any other Middle Eastern country.”
Well, you know that Iraqis did not resist the Americans when they entered. Instead, we welcomed them. Where was the reconstruction you are talking about before the start of the insurgency in Iraq? Where were the Americans in the first months after their invasion? I’ll answer this question to you: they were busy searching for Saddam! And they caught him but after what? After insurgency started and destroyed the country and made the troops lose instead of win the war!.
I think the insurgency was unavoidable. There are simply too many ignorant and violent Iraqis roaming the streets. The USA has something like 1% of our population in prison at any given time. If we applied the same 1% to Iraq, that would be 240,000 people behind bars. I think there are only like 20,000 in detention now. Moreover, in parts of Baghdad and al Anbar, I suspect Iraq should probably have 5-10% of the adult male population in prison.
Original Jeff, come now. Surely you are above racism.
There are many ignorant and violent Iraqis in the streets?
Have you not read the links I labor to put on here showing the insanely criminal actions of the US military.
ANd its Iraqis that are ignorant and violent in THEIR OWN COUNTRY?
This is the ethnocentric drivel that I complain about all the time.
Sooner or later, your air of compassion and debate breaks down to reveal the true self. The self that hates all foreigners Muslims, Arabs, the THEM.
Let's do your math, Original Jeff.
1.7 million Iraqis died because of sanctions in Iraq. By US figures, that's 18.2 million people.
Can you imagine 18.2 million Americans dying because Iraqis did everything in their power to ensure foods and medicines did not reach them.
And then we have Albright tell Leslie Stahl that the killing of 500,000 children (UNICEF numbers) is worth it.
That's 5.35 million children in US numbers.
How could you live with yourself?
Math works both ways, Original Jeff.
Pursuant to the violent Iraqis comment.
Yes, there are violent Iraqis in today's streets but this is a product of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
This would not have happened.
Saddam was taken out, but at what price? Shia, Sunni, everyone in Iraq wants this horrible nightmare to end.
Baghdad Treasure, you are Shia, I am Sunni, together we are Iraqi.
Together we have suffered, and together we learn of ways to express our pains.
But you are on the inside, I am on the outside and I pray for your safety every day.
Inshallah, one day, together we will rebuild our country.
I don't judge people by the color of their skin or the language they speak or the nation they live in, but I do judge people by the content of their character.
I don't make excuses for war crimes. Soldiers have committed crimes in Iraq, and I support prosecution and punishment.
But, I restate my case: If the USA has 729 prisoners per 100,000 population, then Iraq needs AT LEAST that many in prison. And, I suggest, in parts of Anbar and Baghdad, probably a lot more need to be in prison--I'd say 5-10% of adult males.
Regarding sanctions: I view these as having been largely voluntary. The Iraqi leadership had alternatives to sanctions that could have been selected. I think of it this way: I can either drive my car below the posted speed limit, or I can pay the inevitable fine for breaking the speed limit.
I think it is a measure of the lack of compassion for its people that the Iraqi leadership a course of action that resulted in 1.7 million dead Iraqis (to use your figure).
For example, the Iraqi leadership could have immediately started on a program of modernization that included full press freedom, full human rights, fair justice system, full and fair elections at all levels of government, anti-corruption programs, etc. Opening up all records on WMD, etc. Such measures would surely have avoided sanctions and needless deaths.
Original Jeff,
You said:
"For example, the Iraqi leadership could have immediately started on a program of modernization that included full press freedom, full human rights, fair justice system, full and fair elections at all levels of government, anti-corruption programs, etc. Opening up all records on WMD, etc. Such measures would surely have avoided sanctions and needless deaths."
Absolutely true. And that would have been noble.
However, where in the Arab world do you see such freedoms? Even in the former Soviet Satellites (strongly endorsed and supported by the US), such staples are lacking.
Why were sanctions not applied to all of those countries, and China, and Indonesia. And even the farcical liberated Afghans?
Selectivity?
Furthermore, you're forgetting Project for a New American Century:
In 1997, the newly-established Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was comprised of Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfed, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Jeb Bush, and Elliot Abrams.
On January 26, 1998, the PNAC published an open letter to U.S. President Clinton urging him to unilaterally invade Iraq with utter disregard for the U.N.
In September 2000, the PNAC published a blueprint for U.S. foreign policy and strategy. The blueprint, titled Rebuilding America?s Defenses: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, went largely unreported in U.S. media:
"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."
Keywords for anyone who gives a damn: "permanent", "immediate justification", "transcends".
Emphasis on "transcends".
Convenient, no?
Saddam was helped to power by the CIA. Ask everyone in Iraq and they will tell you that unless they are related to Saddam or die-hard Baathists.
The US props him up, the US entraps him in Kuwait, the US uses him as a reason to invade Iraq and fulfill its goal "to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security".
And Iraq's people are obliterated in the meantime.
Original Jeff,
Hate to be picky, but according to Harper's:
Number of people whom Coalition forces have imprisoned in Iraq at some point since March 2003: 48,526[Detainee Operations, Multi-National Force—Iraq (Baghdad)]
Percentage of these who have been convicted of a crime: 1.5 [Detainee Operations, Multi-National Force—Iraq (Baghdad)]
Democracy, but no due process, eh?
Baghdad Treasure,
This is to your friend who was accused of being a Saddamist for suggesting that there was no terrorism during Saddam's regime.
And it's also about your comments concerning Iraq before and after the removal of Saddam.
Many Americans agree with us. And the tide of history is turning in our favor.
Unfortunately many of our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, sheyoukh, elderly have died in the process.
Anyways, from IMUS IN THE MORNING, interview with CHRIS MATTHEWS.
"MSNBC's Chris Matthews: "Well I am just going to stick to this point that the president led us in there with the background music of American culture. Everybody was led to believe that we were getting payback, we were avenging what happened on 9/11 and that we are going to get them. Vice President Cheney said we are going to attack terrorism at its base.
Over and over the language was, this is where it came from, in fact most recently the President suggested that it was always the hot pursuit, like a new York police chase, we chased them back into their country.
We pursued the terrorists back to Iraq and it's all nonsense. The reason there are terrorists in Iraq today like Zarqawi is we created the opening by blowing the country apart. From the beginning it's been not true."
TAI,
Saddam was helped to power by the CIA. Ask everyone in Iraq and they will tell you that unless they are related to Saddam or die-hard Baathists.
The US props him up, the US entraps him in Kuwait, the US uses him as a reason to invade Iraq and fulfill its goal "to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security".
There is so much denial and pure nonsense here it is difficult to know where to begin.
The US offered NO support to Saddam's regime. Who supported Saddam? The Soviet Union and France. MiG-29s and T-series tanks are SOVIET.
Mirages and Exocets are FRENCH. How many?
133 Mirage F-1s
400 Exocet AM39 air-to-surface missiles
200 AS30 laserguided missiles
The US did not even sell ONE BULLET to Iraq.
We kicked the Iraqis out of Kuwait and maintained both southern and northern no-fly zones so that Saddam wouldn't strafe and chemical-bomb every Shia and Kurksh city that defied him. This is a very peculiar kind of SUPPORT, wouldn't you say?
So let's put that canard to rest, okay?
Here's the harsh reality, TAI. Saddam Hussein is a PURE PRODUCT of Iraqi society. In the twentieth-cenury there were no Iraqi leaders who died a natural death. Either they had an "unfortunate accident" or they were slit open and drug through the streets of Baghdad. Ask your older Mislawi relatives about those "brave Iraqis" who drug the bodies through the streets.
Saddam wasn't forced upon Iraqis. He came to power INSIDE Iraq by the usual IRAQI means: AN AK IN THE FACE!
Iraqis have this ONE CHANCE at democracy.
You fail this time and your children and your children's children will be eating SAND for the next two centuries.
It's YOUR CHOICE.
*
Here's a GRAPH of Iraq Weapons Imports: 1973-1990.
TAI, who supported Saddam?
Just look at the graph. Even if you're mostly innumerate, you should be able to figure this one out. The three very LONG lines for Soviet Union, France, and China should give you a clue to your answer.
*
Jeffrey, I would ask you to refrain from being impolite.
Someone who cannot speak Arabic, has never visited Iraq, neither in the 50s, 60s, 80s, 90s, or presently, and has very little knowledge of Iraq except from sources which beef his world vision is dictating to me, an Iraqi, and other Iraqis how we should think.
Our history is being rewritten by those who seek to enslave us.
Sorry, Jeffrey. You have no idea what you are saying. You repeat what you have been asked to repeat.
Do you not see a problem with the fact that you do not speak the language of the culture you so easily dismiss?
Do you not see a problem with the fact that you did not live in Iraq during these times?
Saddam was heavily supported by the CIA when he first came to power. He was given a list of communists by the CIA as soon as the tanks rolled through the Presidential palace in 1968.
The next week, dozens of communists and any political threats were found hanging in the streets of Baghdad.
This continued until well into the early 1970s.
Furthermore, it is common knowledge that the Kuwaitis also funded Saddam and the Baathists to rid them of Abdel Karim Qassim who had called for Kuwait to be integrated into Iraq in 1960, 61.
Was it not Saddam who participated in an assassination attempt on Qassim?
And was it not Qassim who led the assault on the Royal Palace in 1958 and slaughtered the pro-British Royal Family? (See below on Nouri Said)
In 1980, at the start of the Iraq-Iran war, the US leaned on Egypt's Sadat to provide Iraq with billions in weapons.
At the time Iraq had relations with neither Egypt nor the US.
In early 1984, the US reopened its interests section in Iraq and by 1986 full diplomatic relations were in swing.
US advisors, teachers flooded the country. I knew of a few who taught in select Iraqi schools in the mid to late 1980s.
It is a pity that Iraqi politicians such as Ismat Kitani (a Kurdish man I knew personally, his son Dara and I went to the same school in the US) and Nizar Hamdoon are no longer with us to testify to the incredible support Saddam received from the Reagan administration.
During the Iraq-Iran war, the US provided Iraqi scientists with virtually anything they needed to expand their research.
Research the US knew was going to bio-warfare and chemical weapons programs.
The US also helped keep Iraq's economy barely afloat by providing it with subsidies and loan guarantees which the Iraqis used to purhcase wheat and rice from American farmers.
Iraq was a huge market for US rice and wheat growers.
Furthemore, the US gave satellite images of Iranian troop movements during the war.
When Iraq retook the Fao peninsula on April 17, 1988 (where you there, Jeffrey, in Iraq?) it did not do so alone.
The US had leaned on Egypt yet again to help in preparing for the military operation (basing it on Egypt's skills in dealing with the Bar Lev line in the Sinai in 1973).
The US provided the Iraqi military with satellite images of the Fao peninsula and allowed for the routing of the Iranian army and the opening up of western Iran to the Iraqi army.
There were reports that US military advisors had helped the Egyptians in helping the Iraqis.
You say no bullets were sold by the US. They didn't need to.
I was in Baghdad when the US sold 50 advanced helicopters (minus their armaments) to the Iraqis.
The US knew the Iraqis would modify them and place armaments on them.
When an Iraqi fighter struck the USS Stark with an Exocet missile killing 37 US sailors, the Reagan administration covered up the story as quickly as it could.
Were you in Iraq then, Jeffrey?
You could provide me with dozens of charts and I will provide you with first-hand accounts. I knew a man, my neighbor, in Baghdad who was trained in the US to build military airstrips.
While he was in the US learning this craft, his son was born there.
I presume he likely fled back to the US some time ago.
Have you ever visited Ein Shas Air Force base outside Cairo, Jeffrey.
I did, an Iraqi entered in a program for US-Iraqi cooperation.
The US embassy in Cairo gave me authorization saying "Iraq was an ally of the United States and Egypt".
I sat and ate with pilots who would two years later bomb my country to smithereens.
That was 1988 and it haunts me still.
Please, you only serve to embarass yourself.
Even the drug (sic) you speak off. The dragging of Iraqi leaders through the streets wasn't in Mosul.
You are speaking of the infamous incident in which Prime Minister Nouri Said was killed, tied to a truck and dragged around Baghdad for two straight days until there was very little left of his carcass.
Even that was hanged for all to see.
Do you know the Geilani family? Perhaps, you should contact them so you can get a first-hand account of the 1958 bloodbath and the political promises broken.
Do you know Rashid Aali? Not Ali, but Aali and his resistance to the British in 1941 which eventually culminated in the 1958 revolution?
Go ahead, you have no answers and nothing to say, so now, as in other cases, you will resort to foul language.
TAI,
Typical.
All the NUMBERS are there for everyone to see and your DISREGARD them.
You're as delusional as SADDAM HUSSEIN himself.
You've become the BAGHDAD BOB of the Iraqi Blogosphere.
With guys like you, it's ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.
And that's why, if Iraq has a future, it will NOT be because of you.
*
TAI,
You are a slave to your own DELUSIONS.
Just like BAGHDAD BOB.
*
Think what you will. You call me delusional because I draw from experience events and histories of my country.
You merely read about them thousands of miles away, insulated in your ethnocentric world.
The facts remain, I am Iraqi, you are not.
I have lived in Iraq, you have not.
I have eaten of the fruits of my country, you have not.
I have cried with my people and rejoiced with them, our pains our victory.
You cannot.
Have you ever had klaicha? Or sipped some traditional Iraqi tea?
Have you ever had pacha? Timaan we marag?
How about kubat Mosul?
Did you rejoice when Adnan Dirjal scored the winning goal against South Korea in 1986?
Did you celebrate Ramadhan with us?
The Eid?
Did you kiss your neighbor on both cheeks after you hadn't seen him in a long time?
Did you cry for us when we sent our sons, brothers and fathers to fight Iran?
Or when we went from house to house paying our condolences to our neighbors who lost their children, black banners hanging outside?
I speak Arabic, you do not.
I have a common heritage with every Iraqi, blogger or otherwise.
You do not.
I was in love with my country and my people before you learned to spell I R A Q.
When all is said and done, you will retreat and begin to terrorize someone else.
I will remain to do what I can for my country and along with all Iraqis build a future safe, free and secure from the wolves who seek to destroy our country.
Given the above, you are out of line to tell me what delusions I may and may not have about my own country.
A country you likely never heard of 20 years ago.
You even attacked Baghdad Treasure ("Iraq will have a great future -- but NOT due to you," you said to him.)
Is that what you say to each one of us who defend the honor of their country?
Chris Matthews asked Pat Buchanan how you can defeat a people even if you stay in their country for 500 years, they will be there after you leave in the 501st year.
That is precisely the point.
We were hear long before you came.
And we will be here long after you have gone and despite your terrible presence.
TAI,
Baghdad Bob and Chemical Ali also considered themselves patriotic Iraqis.
Listen TAI, if you really want to help build a prosperous Iraq (even from your perch in Bahrain at present), then all the power to you.
I too WANT Iraq to succeed.
But for Iraq to succeed, Iraqis will need to take a hard look at what tribal values and a succession of totalitarian regimes have given to the country. Kurds already have a prosperous and quiet region in the north. Currently it's just the Arabs who are indulging themselves in the good ol' AK IN THE FACE way of conflict resolution.
I'm on your side, TAI. I too would like to see Iraq prosper. The Multinational Forces just removed a large CANCER from your country -- Saddam Hussein, who only cared about himself and his sons. The Americans killed his sons and soon Saddam will be swinging.
I too would like to see Muqtada Al-Sadr in a court of law, just like you.
This month hundreds of Iraqi citizens have been killed by the insurgents. During that same time only 25 or so Coalition forces have been killed. So who are the insurgents targeting? IRAQI CITIZENS. It's obvious. And these are the people you support?
*
TAI,
Regarding detention policy in Iraq. I think only 20,000 or so people are being held in all of Iraq. (As I mentioned, this is really low. Iraqis must be the most righteous and honest and nonviolent people on Earth, or you have far, far too few people in prison.) Most have been temporarily held and then released. This press release says the CCCI has held 954 trials of insurgents. These proceedings have resulted in 858 individual convictions with sentences ranging up to 30 years imprisonment.
As I understand it, there is an Iraqi board appointed by the government that determines whether or not Iraqis should be held in detention. This type of appointed board is not sufficient in my view.
The classic geneva conventions about combatants and prisoners of war makes sense in a classical war where professional soldiers are fighting in uniforms with massed forces.
When the society is essentially funtioning, but there is just a brutal insurgency, it seems to me these should be treated as justice system matters. Simply make it a crime to participate in an armed militia or insurgency, and start locking up those proven to be members--or execute them if you wish.
Hi, you guys! Just finished lunch.
The bright thing about this chain of posts is that there is only one Jeffrey here. You know there are plenty of jeffrey's out there. I'm going to guess that jeffrey is a college student with an interest in politics (do most of us share that interest ?) Jeffrey sounds like me when I was his age (no matter what his age). He has read a few books (I hope) and has listened to a professor or two (I hope) and so he believes he has most of the answers.
All we have to do is fly Jeffrey down to Iraq, and he could teach Jimmy Carter (one of my possible heroes) all about negotiation and peace. It all seems so simple looking at from a text book.
I just wish Jeffrey would save all his comments and put them in one comment rather than stringing them out for pages and pages. Jeffrey is a typical segment of the American mind. And the funny thing is, Jeffrey is not in the White House with all its "yes men" and access to all that power, all that information. The frightening thing is that Pres. Bush sounds similar to Jeffrey.
So, I wouldn't get all wound up over Jeffrey's earnest attempts to get us to see "the light". Humor him. Like I said there are alot of Jeffreys living in the US and possibly serving in the US forces.
EdoRiver,
As far as I can tell, your comment was 100% ad hominem with 0% content.
@ EdoRiver, 3/26/2006 6:32 AM.
Great post, EdoRiver!
EdoRiver,
Just a couple points.
First of all, I was born just around the day that Dwight D. Eisenhower won his second election. If you consider yourself a student of history, even if that history consists of tenuous conspiracy theories and misplaced models of capitalist imperialism, I imagine you'll be able to guess the approximate date.
Given that date and my degrees in higher education, you might also assume that I have in fact read a fair number of books. And you would be correct. For my undergraduate degree, now twenty-five years in the past, I read and wrote in Ancient Greek, Latin, German, and French. Perhaps you don't realize that I teach at a university. Well, it's true, so I have not only read many books but I have taught probably more books in my career than you yourself have read.
Original Jeff makes a salient observation. In your comment, you rebutted none of the arguments and numbers I provided in my posts. TAI claimed that the US supported Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis; I offered reliable statistics to show that the Soviet Union, France, and China, in fact, were the ones supporting Saddam Hussein. It is no coincidence that it was the Russian ambassadors to leave Baghdad LAST.
I can run cool and methodical and I can flame with the best of them. Writing is easy for me. Judging by your attempts above, I can see that composition is something unnatural for you. Well, watch and learn, buddy.
*
JUST IN:
In Mahmudiya, located in the notorious "triangle of death" just south of the capital, six mortar rounds rained down on three houses, killing four people and wounding 13 on Saturday.
Another four Iraqis were killed earlier when a roadside bomb exploded near a bus travelling through the eastern edge of the city, police reported.
The blast also wounded two others on the bus, which was passing through a mixed Sunni-Shia part of the city. Armed men in the same neighbourhood attacked a police checkpoint, gravely wounding one policeman.
Okay, TAI and BT and EdoRiver and "Italian."
Who did this?
Who fired mortar-rounds blindly into that neighbordhood? And why?
A roadside bomb near a bus that killed four Iraqi civilians ON PURPOSE?
Who would do that, TAI?
Could it be the handy-work of the GLORIOUS RESISTANCE?
Oh, that's only the foreign jihadis, I guess, right? How could the foreign jihadis operate in the Sunni triangle without the logistical support of the Baathist Sunnis? Like I said before, the insurgents are the Baathists and the terrorists, both of them bent on killing as many Iraqis as they can. They sure aren't killing many Americans. That's for sure.
Who would attack a police checkpoint?
Those Iraqi policemen have families too, do they not, TAI?
Aren't they MORE Iraqi than YOU?
*
ALSO FROM TODAY:
East of the capital, in the small town of Balad Ruz, another roadside bomb killed two teenage boys selling farm produce from the back of their bicycles.
Here a roadside bomb kills two teenage boys on their bicycles.
Who did this, TAI.
Is this again the work of the GLORIOUS RESISTANCE?
*
EdoRiver, TAI, Nadia;
Well done!
Also, please don’t frizzle to the frazzle by flogging a dead horse – ‘Jaeff’ (Iraqi delicate for foul smell)
BT,
Thank you for your comment. One for All & All for One.
Jeffrey,
“Who did this?”
C’mon! shall I repeat what I have posted earlier? Ok, I’ll just copy it and paste it to save time.
You are right. I haven’t mentioned a word about that in the last period. But do you know why? Because these insurgents are criminals and gangs unlike the US army, which is supposed to be one of the most respected army in the world. It is a criminal’s job to kill innocents, but is it applied to the US army? I don’t think so.
Original_Jeff, replying to your first post here: When the US soldiers came to Germany they brought peace after a long, devastating war everybody was tired of. When they came to Iraq they brought the war with them.
Some of the comments here are shocking, to say the least. I guess people's ignorance knows no limits.
To the "Good Americans": We (I'm German, but I'm sure this applies to others as well) know you're not all like "them". It's sad to see what's happening to your country, I'm sure if you had read today's news a few days before 9/11 you wouldn't have believed it could ever come to this.
It can't last forever. In a few years it will be better, and in a few decades we'll all say "This could never happen today"...
To the Iraqis: I'm very worried but sincerely hope it won't get any worse than this and that you will have peace soon.
Don't give up hope. Most of all, stay safe.
Baghdad Treasure,
I am sorry. I didn't state my point very well in my earlier post.
I think this war is horrible. I was opposed to it before it began. In 2002 I did a little (I wrote to my Senators), but probably not enough (I did not attend any protests) to prevent it.
I fully agree that Iraqis do not now have freedom. I am saddened and horrified by the reports of US atrocities, and I think you do a great service to report these.
I was confused only by your distinction between "resisting Americans" and "terrorism." It seems to me that both of these actions are self-destructive in many ways. Resistors and terrorists alike continually defeat any improvements in the Iraqi infrastructure. Resistors and terrorists alike prevent an effective Iraqi government from forming. Resistors and terrorists alike create a wall of fear and hatred between Americans and Iraqis--and this wall can only increase the frequency of American atrocities like the one you describe above. Resistors and terrorists alike are forcing the American troops to stay in Iraq longer than the U.S. government ever intended. The U.S. invasion of Iraq may have seeded a long-term hatred between our peoples, but resistors and terrorists (and U.S. troops who commit atrocities) alike are cultivating it.
I still believe both resistance and terrorism are wrong.
Do you forgive me for sharing my opinion so easily from the safety of my home in America while you and your loved ones suffer directly? I admire the dialogue that you invite on your blog, but I am ashamed to participate. I wonder if I ought to earn my voice.
I wish you safety and peace.
Michael Hardt
Michael,
Thank you for understanding my point and please do not be ashamed. It's not your fault. I admire your comments and will to discuss things in a civilized and mutual way.
Bests.
When the International Criminal Court (ICC) was established in 2002 to prosecute individuals for genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes, the United States, along with Israel, People's Republic of China, Iraq, Qatar, Libya and Yemen voted against its establishmnent.
Reports of civilian massacres, covered up by US authorities, show why the US will not subject its troops to independent scrutiny.
I'm losing my mind, I am definitely going crazy. People, innocent people, are being killed everyday and people like original jeff are blaming them for getting themselves killed, bad Iraqis he says. What do you want us to do? You people invaded our country, killed and killing our brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, friends, even our children, even 2 year olds are not safe anymore now that you LIBBIRATED us from the tyrant. You want to replace us with Germans? Can anybody see how stupid that is or it's just me? How would any of you feel if stormed your house in the middle of the night, killed you little brother in front of his parent's eyes, then killed his parents, and left you to tell the story? And for no good reason whatsoever, I just snapped. And have the nerve to blame Islam? Haven’t you ever read about the crusades? Haven’t you ever read about popes ordering people to be killed and burned just because they disagreed with them? All these crimes were committed in the name of Christ, and crimes are still being committed in Christ's name. I dare you, any of you, to give one word, one word only, that might even suggests that we, Christians, should kill any other humane being. You won't find such word, because there isn’t. Don’t tell me that Islam is bad, that the Quran says Muslims should kill Jews; we killed Jews and Muslims throughout history more that any of you can imagine, and still do, all in the name of Christ. Give me a freaking brake. You came to liberate us? Have you forgotten the original reason to go to war? WMDs? Connection with bin laden? You didn’t forget, but you choose to ignore it. Innocent people were brutally murdered, by blood-thirsty trigger-happy Americas, and all the victims get is " an investigation", and even if the murders were found guilty, they wont go to prison where they belong, all they might get is a lower rank, maybe scold them a little, tell them not to do it again, a pat on the back, and they send them back again. Do you know what the victims' fault is? There weren’t born American. I am too pissed off to think clearly, but all I ask of you is this, close your eyes, imagine some breaking into a house, killing all the residents of that house including children and elderly, leaving the house and doing the same in another house nearby, and another, and another, and another, now imagine that these who were killed are Americans.
God bless you all.
and by the way, i think many of you would find this very helpfull. you say that we should 5-10% of iraqi adult mails in prison, and we, iraqis, and violant by nature. i suggest you read this article wirrten by an american. it might change your mind on whos violant by nature.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LEN20060316&articleId=2113
AM Truth about Iraqis,
Sunni, Soonie, Shiite, Shia - people spell them all differently...small thing to critique...
Baghdadtreasure,
You think you don't have freedom now? First you had Saddam. Some things you did have, yes - but did you really have freedon? Did you forget what it was like? His son's and their friends taking woman out of the university and raping and kiling them. Anyone off the street was killed for walking in front of a car with goverment officials in it.
Second - what happens if the US would just leave right now? You think you would have freedom? You think you could walk down the street without any worries? How easily the people are forgetting what it was like and what it could be. Yes it's bad right now....why can't the insugents stop killing the men who are signing up to police your country, to run your country? If that would stop the US could leave and let you run your own country. Don't blame the US for all the militants coming form other countries.
As much as you don't want the US there right now - don't wish them away---that would be far worse.
There is nothing I want more than be able to see all my riends be able to go back to their country and live peacefully. You have to admit many Iraqis have been taught to hate. That has held true even before Il Khanid in 1258AD.....
Is Petunia for real?
Was the spelling of Sunni the only thing I critiqued? Ah, how casually you ignore what you don't want to hear.
Now, lets get to some of your bigotry and put you back in your place.
Some things you did have, yes - but did you really have freedon?
How would you know what we did or did not have? Please provide more information such as how long you lived in Iraq.
How easily the people are forgetting what it was like and what it could be.
How could you possibly know what it is we forget or remember when you did not live among us. Please provide more information.
Furthermore, don't you find it rather odd that you are dictating to us how we should feel about our own country? Did we tell you how to feel on 9-11? No.
So, please, have some dignity here.
If that would stop the US could leave and let you run your own country.
Let us? So you acknowledge the US miltary force is an occupying imperialist entity.
Or, you are being ethnocentrist. Let us? Need you be reminded this is not your country and we never asked you here?
Don't blame the US for all the militants coming form other countries.
Really? Pre-invasion: Militants, next to none (and please do not quote me the Al-Qaida camp in the mountains of Kurdistan - the one area where the central government was not in control).
Post-invasion: Militants, too many to count.
You have to admit many Iraqis have been taught to hate.
Ahhh, a beautiful statement, where did you glean that one from? Nazi literature about the Jews? Simply replace Iraqis with Jews. Now march down Fifth Avenue and yell that at the top of your lungs.
How long will you last? No?
Fine, replace the word Iraqis with blacks and go down to Fifth Avenue and yell it at the top of your lungs.
No? Why not? Is it offensive? Hmmm ...
Keep talking Petunia, bigots like you come and go and we deal with you just fine.
[petunia] “The majority of the Iraqis want the Americans there right now”
Umm. No. Try again. (I guess that’s why the PIPA poll showed over 85% of Iraqis are ‘opposed to US presence’ and that 47% of Iraqis approved of violent attacks on US troops.)
[Baghdad treasure] “I tell you, if you ask any Iraqi in the street about this, he would tell “what the hell? Who cares about what the pentagon statements? We see everything before our eyes.”
I laughed when I read this. I’ll tell you why.
There is another, very intelligent, very informed Iraqi blogger called Abu Khaleel. This man is diplomacy personified. He thought that by trying to hold a rational dialogue with the American war fanatics, he could persuade them that they were supporting an immoral cause. And this is precisely the problem he encountered. If something bad was done by US troops, all sorts of excuses and justifications would pour out from the war fanatics, supported with ‘pentagon statements’ and ‘news items’. No matter that he himself knew personally the reality on the ground. The war nuts would tell HIM the truth. The poor man gave up in disgust.
And that trend continues. If an Iraqi says: “a US troop shot at me” then these fanatics will bend and twist the story until the person who was shot at is the criminal. Look at what happened to Truth-Teller from the moslawi blog for an example.
And look, here’s one of them:
[original jeff] “I think the insurgency was unavoidable. There are simply too many ignorant and violent Iraqis roaming the streets.”
You see, BT? It’s not the American’s fault, they who invaded violently on false pretences with thousands of tanks and aircraft. It’s YOUR fault, because Iraqis are ignorant and violent. Seriously, HOW do you argue with such logic?
T A I –
Very pertinent and on the ball commentary as always.
Some support for the US supply of weaponry to Hussein can be found here:
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/
and more specifically this article:
U.s. supplies, calibrates and endorses use of chemical weapons in Iraq
10 Sept. 2002 - Gary Treece
“According to information obtained by the AGWVA, there is irrefutable evidence to show that the United States government provided and encouraged Iraq’s use of chemical weapons. The United States Department of Commerce and The American Type Culture Collection (ATCC) provided at least 80 shipments of biological agents that were not attenuated (or weakened) and were capable of reproduction. These shipments included such virulent agents as Anthrax, West Nile Virus and Clostridium botulinum (S.R.103-900, May 25, 1994, pg. 264).
[…]
According to “U.S. Diplomatic and Commercial Relationships with Iraq”, 1980-August 2, 2000, (www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html), Nathaniel Hurd states:
“Iraq reportedly began using chemical weapons (CW) against Iranian troops in 1982, and significantly increased CW use in 1983… Shortly after removing Iraq from the terrorism sponsorship list, the Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 Hughes helicopters. Analysts recognized that “civilian” helicopters can be weaponized in a matter of hours and selling a civilian kit can be a way of giving military aid under the guise of civilian assistance.”
[…]
Mark Phythian, in his book Arming Iraq: How the U.S. and Britain Secretly Built Saddam’s War Machine” (Northeastern University Press, 1997) stated:
“ …the Secretaries of Commerce and State (George Baldridge and George Shultz) lobbied the NSC (National Security Council) advisor into agreeing to the sale to Iraq of 10 Bell helicopters, officially for crop spraying. It is believed that US-supplied choppers were used in the 1988 chemical attack on the Kurdish village Halabja, which killed 5000 people.”
[…]
Riley, a former Captain in the United States Air Force Reserve and Flight Nurse states:
If it wasn’t bad enough to watch our troops become ill from our own weapons… the Department of Defense labeled our sick men and women as “mental cases.” These proud men and women have been abandoned, are now sick and must fight the battle alone. These needless illnesses and deaths now lie at the feet of the Pentagon and Veterans’ Administration Hospitals.” //end excerpt.
Jeffrey’s lame defence hinges on “ we didn’t help Hussein as much as France and Russia” – which of course is no defence at all. One imagines a one of a gang of rapists protest his innocence in court by saying he ‘didn’t rape as much as the others’. Yeah, a cast iron defence alright.
In addition to this brief synopsis, there is also evidence that the US indirectly supplied Iraq with military hardware through intermediaries such as Mubarak’s Egypt.
Finally, the conclusion of this article is illuminating. The current generation of “war vets” in Iraq may do well to take note, that in five or ten years time, they will still be dismembered, melted or scarred from their experiences in Iraq, and they will have to cope on their own. Help from the US govt. will be along the lines of ‘get a job, you leech’.
You don't know me....how dare you call be a bigot.
I live in a city with a huge Iraqi population. We are part of their lives, i have wailed with them after a death, i have attended Jaman and have learned Arabic (not to spell it but to say it and understand some). My husband and I are considered family and my husband is allowed to be in the house when the man of the house is not at home. We all eat together, men and women. We are greeted with kisses on both cheeks and we love our friends dearly. We have talked for 7 years with hundreds of Iraqis about all of the heartache in Iraq. No, i am not Iraqi, and No i have not lived there. But i have seen and heard the stories and talked to all the people who are still citizens and were forced to leave or be killed by Saddam's men. Many were instrumental in the civil war in '91. They are afraid to go back now because of all the insurgents, not because the US is there. We IM with their family who are in Baghdad and in another small town south of Baghdad along the river. They want the US there - they are not against their presence. Yes - they wish things were better but they beg that the US stay and not leave like they did in '91.
There are militants in Iraq now because it's a perfect opportunity for them to show their hatred to non-muslims. I am NOT saying all muslims are like that (because i know they are not from experience) but you have to admit there are some who ARE taught to hate any Christians or non-muslims (look at what just happened in Afganistan). My friends have assured me that most Iraqis have lived in harmony with Christians there in Iraq for years. When i said that Iraqis have been taught to hate i should have clarified that with "groups of Iraqis" like the Bathists. Yes, like people in the US who hate other groups - i agree with you.....the white supremists are BRED to hate black people just like the NAZI GERMANS were bred to hate the jews. And there are groups of Iraqis who are just hateful to anyone who doesn't believe the way they do (Zarqowi is a prime example).
Please don't judge me - i know what the majority of Iraqis feel here. They all have family there and family that have been killed. One of our good friends is there now being an interpretor for the army. He is trying to help his country by helping the US. We pray for his safety, the safety of your countrymen and the safety of our troops every day.
I just get upset that a coutry that we are trying to help thinks so poorly of us. We ARE putting our men's lives at risk to help - war is just hell and no one wants to live through it - but it's better than the alternative.
I care about Iraq and want to be able to visit all our friends one day there -
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